Using only passive learning for grammar-bad idea?

[kvetch]

Every time I come across new grammar I make sure to read up on it. All this seems to have done so far is leave me with a raging headache. If I'm lucky I'll have vaguely grasped the concept but by then I'm too burned out to do anything else. So I thought a better idea would be to let it sink in passively at first, after I've heard it used in a variety of ways then I could look up the rules to reinforce my understanding. Did this for 把 and 被 and it seems to have turned out alright.

Is this not recommended though, especially for someone who is terrible with grasping grammar concepts? I still have problems understanding what adjectives and adverbs are, let alone things like interrogative pronouns so does this mean I should put extra effort into understanding grammar rules and terms?

[耳耳语语]

According to this topic passive assimilation is allright, using lots of sentences

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/43196-how-can-i-improve-knowledge-of-word-order/

 

Also somewhere else someone gave this advice :

Write sentences in your own native langage, but in the chinese order sequence and approximative equivalents.

ex :

"We together concerning things put in order ok ?"

Women yiqi ba dongxi bai zhengxi ba.

我们一起把东西摆整齐吧.

[Yorin]

I'd strongly suggest that you put in that extra effort to understand basic grammar terms such as adjective, adverb, verb, noun etc. first. It won't just help you when reading some grammar rule in which these terms are used. Knowing which is which, and knowing what the characteristics of the different part of speech are, you'll have much less difficulty deconstructing and analyzing any sentence that you come across, and using that knowledge to systematically construct your own sentences.

It's like... if you're a physicist, you need to know the difference between protons, neutrons and electrons in order to understand why physics are the way they are. Only then will you be able to devise a meaningful experiment instead of just having a shot in the dark.

[Demonic_Duck]

I feel like a lot of the grammar I know personally is passively learned, and it rarely causes me problems. Although I often suspect the way I've said a sentence isn't 100% accurate, it's generally understood. I have a decent "语感" (feel for the language), so my sentences typically don't have major structural issues, just maybe the odd missplaced article or something

 

I sort of agree with what Yorin says as well, though. Learn those terms, and learn them in Chinese too (along with some Chinese-specific ones, such as "verb-object", "verb-complement", "measure word" etc.). That way, when you learn a new word and you're not too sure how to use it, you can simply ask “是（动词/名词/形容词等）吗？” or “也可以当（动词/名词/形容词等）用吗？”

[Fran_Chengdu]

In my experience, learning passively is good. When you have seen the grammatical pattern repeated often enough, it will probably just stick in your head and become natural. It's a good idea to pay attention the context surrounding the pattern - when is it used, in what context, formal and informal, with which words does it match. I think these things can be done more intuitively, and learning them in context is much easier in helping you remember them.

 

I don't think learning that such-and-such a word is whatever type and therefore can only go in X type of structure is much use in most circumstances, and especially not if it gives you a headache! Perhaps that sort of understanding can help more when you make a mistake, and you want to understand why it is wrong. For that, you might want to learn some grammatical terms, especially as a tutor would probably use those terms. But if you don't want to do that, then I wouldn't spend much energy in trying to learn them. This is how I've approached grammar, I think.

 

Having said that my grammar probably needs a lot of work - so take from that what you will!

[Elizabeth_rb]

I don't want to discourage anyone, but I've yet to meet anyone who has successfully (and I mean accurately) learned Chinese without sitting down and studying sentence patterns etc, (aka grammar).  I know a few who think they speak Chinese having learned by just talking with people and/or by osmosis, but their actual ability seems to me to be substantially lower than their opinion of it!!   Sorry, that's just the teacher in me talking, but it is true: One must study in order to learn a language well.

 

I totally support Yorin et al who say learn the basic grammatical terms well and would add to that to get hold of a decent grammar/structure workbook that will help you really understand and practice the new stuff.  You don't need to be able to read and talk about grammar at a linguistics sort of level, just well enough to be able to follow a reasonable book, esp. when you see the example sentences (they're often not too easy to follow before you read the examples!!).

 

加油！

[anonymoose]

I don't think it's a good idea. Many immigrants into the UK are passive learners of English, and even after having been in country for 40 years, their English is still peppered with grammatical mistakes, as well as bad pronunciation. Presumably the same would happen with learning Chinese. If you want your Chinese to be usable, then maybe you can do it, but if you want your Chinese to be good, then you need to keep checking your own grammar and correcting any mistakes.

[Demonic_Duck]

I guess what I'm thinking of as "passive" learning may not really be passive, as I tend to ask a lot of questions as to e.g. how new words can be used, how I ought to rephrase a sentence, etc., which is certainly different from going through a grammar book and memorising all the structures.

[kvetch]

 

 

 Many immigrants into the UK are passive learners of English, and even after having been in country for 40 years, their English is still peppered with grammatical mistakes, as well as bad pronunciation.

I always assumed that was because many of them stick to people from their own country and didn't bother integrating? Not that I blame them-I find that generally people in the UK are less likely to make the link between "weird  person" and cultural difference/poor language ability. 

Thanks for everyone's advice. Going to make a list of terms and what they are, along with examples. I worded my question poorly though-what I'm having trouble with is with encountering groups of words in unfamiliar situations, or just a group of unfamiliar words and not being able to make sense of them even after consulting a dictionary. Would learning grammar help with this? So I could use my knowledge of syntax to deduce that this word is a adverb, the other an adjective etc. and then produce an accurate translation?

 

[Elizabeth_rb]

What anonymoose describes there also fits some of our non-German and very well integrated friends in Germany, (according to my German hubby, anyway!!).  Active study makes a huge difference.

 

kvetch: I understand what you mean!  Sometimes it's really hard to 'get' when to use a certain word and when to use the other when the dictionary gives the same translation!  There are some books around of the 'common mistakes by foreigners' genre, which might help.  The other way is to to as demonic duck describe and ask lots of questions of native speakers! (Def NOT passive learning, DD!)  Lang-8 can also be good too for that.  You can try out sentences and then ask those who correct them for more info.  

 

I think that learning more advanced grammar can indeed help with deciphering unfamiliar words or even familiar words in unexpected places.  A multi-pronged attack is usually your best bet.

[kvetch]

Lang8 is just what I need right now. Thank you so much! I'm shy and tend to worry about 麻烦ing others so I don't ask a lot of questions.

[Demonic_Duck]

It's not 麻烦 if you're contributing something of value in return, whether that's paying money to them as a teacher, reciprocally answering their annoying questions about English, or simply keeping them entertained with your sparkling wit and good company. Of course in that last case (i.e. if they're simply friends) you don't want to go too heavy on the annoying questions, though you'll find that most people who are willing to make friends with foreigners with a less-than perfect grasp of their language are generally happy to help out once in a while too. Buying them dinner now and again won't go amiss either though ;)

 

As for Lang-8, I believe they've recently launched a companion website called HiNative with the specific aim of asking and answering questions, though I haven't checked it out myself yet.

[kvetch]

Argh, it's only available for smartphone, it says...but thanks anyway. I tend to find that asking natives with poor english skills leaves me more confused than anything, Chinese teachers included.

[Demonic_Duck]

Well, ideally you ask in Chinese, then you won't have that problem. You can get pretty far with just a few simple terms such as 动词、名词、形容词、副词、主语、宾语 (verb, noun, adjective, adverb, subject, object). And those terms themselves aren't too difficult to work your head around with a little bit of study (adjectives differ from adverbs in that adjectives apply to nouns, whereas adverbs apply to verbs or adjectives), though they may take longer to become intuitive.

 

As for terms like "interrogative pronoun", they're honestly not something you're likely to ever need to say unless you take up linguistics. And of course, you'll never have to learn terms for "future perfect continuous", "infinitive", "article", "plural" and "singular" and all of that other crap that you would if you were learning English instead of Chinese

[Baron]

The things about Chinese grammar is, superficially, there's not that much to it once you get past the bassics like word order, 把, 被 etc, so grammar books are often full of the exceptions, very minute detail of a single feature, and so many example sentences that you get hung up on interesting vocabulary. So prescriptively studying grammar can be time consuming with disproportionatly small reward. It's useful to take the time to consult a grammar book when you come across something you have trouble using correctly, but like others have said, asking a native to explain it can be enlightening.

 

From my own experience as someone who never studied grammar (though to qualify this, I did live in China so had lots of good language input), when I started getting into tests, and the odd bit of teaching, I found that relying on intuition alone could leave me questioning my ability. Furthemore, since leaving a Chinese environment, things I've learned more formally tend to stick in mind more than things that I'd picked up. So, yes, there is something to be said for actively and consciously learning something.

[li3wei1]

what I'm having trouble with is with encountering groups of words in unfamiliar situations, or just a group of unfamiliar words and not being able to make sense of them even after consulting a dictionary. Would learning grammar help with this?

 

I've read through two grammar books, and regularly consult another, and still frequently have the problem you describe. So, no. Reading a grammar book, by itself, will not make the problem go away. I think the only way is to write down every time it happens, and when you find or hire a willing native speaker, go through them and ask.