How to traslate 正参领 , 副参领 , 协参领

[JackTheCrow]

Hi guys I'm writing my graduate thesis. My argument is Military system of ranks from last Qing dynasty to now. I found some difficult translate these three official position:

正参领 , 副参领 , 协参领 of the last Qing period. Everyone are intermediate official names

 

the others, for example are these

 

zheng dutong 正都统 

fu dutong 副都统 

xie dutong协都统 

 

 

 

 

so, I need some help friends 

[陳德聰]

Are you writing your graduate thesis in English or Italian?

[JackTheCrow]

Italian, but english translation is enough!

[scottt]

正参领 ---> Major TsanLing
副参领 ---> Vice   TsanLing
协参领 ---> Assistant TsanLing
-----------------------------------------
As far as I knew, there are 3 levels for the military officers in Qing period :
     the highest level is 都统 (Dutung), then 参领 (TsanLing) , then 军校 (JeunSiau)
    Each level has 3 grades with different prefix 正(Major) , 副(Vice), 协 (Assistant)
-------
 Thus, the level+grade combinations makes 9 positions as follow:
正都统,  副都统, 协都统 may equal to current US Army's General (上将 ), Lieutenant General(中将 ), Major General(少将 ),
正参领,  副参领, 协参领 may equal to current US Army's Colonel (上校 ), Lieutenant Colonel(中校 ), Major (少校 ),
正军校,  副军校, 协军校 may equal to current US Army's Captain (上尉 ), First Lieutenant (中尉 ), Second Lieutenant(少尉 ),

[JackTheCrow]

hey scottt thanks you for this answer, but I'm writing a thesis about it, so I already know this levels. My problem is just how to translate literally 参领.

 

Hope you can help me. Thanks a lot

[OneEye]

From a quick Google search, it looks like some people translate it as colonel, some as jalan (from the Manchu word...now you can check a Manchu dictionary if you'd like), and some leave it as canling. Is there a reason to "translate" it (it isn't really a translation, it's more like forcing a western concept onto a Chinese/Manchu one) rather than simply transliterating it and including the Chinese characters in parentheses? Presumably the people who read your thesis will be familiar with the term, and if you don't think they will be you can just add a footnote or something explaining the hierarchy. IMO, it would be more desirable to be accurate in your thesis rather than making concessions like that just because it might make the paper more accessible to a layman.

 

Just my two cents.

[jbradfor]

Two more arguments in support of OneEye.

 

1) Different militaries have different ranking systems, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_rank#Military_ranks_and_insignia_of_various_nations .  Which one will you use?

 

2) Even assuming you decide on one system (e.g. Army is probably more appropriate for Ancient China than Air Force ), that doesn't mean that your readers will be familiar with the actual ranking.  Without looking, in the USA Army, what is the ranking among Major, Colonel, General, Captain, and Lieutenant?  Second Lieutenant vs First Lieutenant vs Lieutenant Colonel vs Colonel?  And the 5 different "Generals"?  And if you assume your readers are knowledgeable in the field of military / military history and will know the terms, then they should be able to handle Canling.

 

P.S. Don't use "TsanLing", use Canling.  Might as well use pinyin, and don't capitalize within a word.  We doNot write EnGlish senTenCes with capITalIZaTion like this.

[JackTheCrow]

my chinese level is HSK 5, I know how to use pinyin. About Oneeye's suggestion, believe i'm the first who don't like forcing a western concept onto a Chinese one and, expecially a chinese onto a western one, but my teacher asked me.

 

However, I still think you don't understand I just want to know how you do a literal traslate of these three terms.

[陳德聰]

There is a dictionary in my school's library that is used for translating titles and names of offices that I will try to find for you when I go in on Tuesday... In the meantime I will try google searching it and get back to you about it.

[陳德聰]

Found a pdf for it!
Super surprising, but a big thank you to Harvard for having it:
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic1068612.files/Hucker%20Official%20Titles%20OCR%20Searchable_All%20Pages.pdf

 

"A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China" by Charles O. Hucker if you are looking for it in print.

It's a pain though because it's oldschool and uses a non-pinyin romanization and doesn't respond to ctrl+f haha... But I found you some stuff and have copied it out by hand below. Unfortunately the dictionary doesn't provide characters for all the italics... but some of them should be obvious. If not, I can help with that but not for a bit.

参领:
6888 ts'an ling
CH'ING:
(1) Regimental Commander, rank 3a, in the Manchu military organization called the Eight Banners (pa ch'i), identifiable by prefixed terminology, e.g., hu-chun ts'an-ling (Regimental Commander in the Guards Brigade), ch'ien-feng ts'an-ling (Regimental Commander in the Vanguard Brigade); usually aided by one or more Regimental Vice Commanders (fu ts'an-ling), 4a. BH; colonel. P37.
(2) Commandant, 5, rank 3b' one for each of the Banner (ch'i) groups of families under the jurisdiction of a Princely Establishment (wang-fu) or Ducal Establishment (kung-ju), each aided principally by 7 Assistant Commandants (tso-ling) 4b. P69.

都统
7321 tu t'ung
(1) N-S DIV (N. Ch'i): Supervisor, 2, rank 5, in charge of the Imperial Wardrobe Service (chu-i chii) of the Chancellery (men-hsia sheng). P37.

(2) T'ANG-SUNG: Campaign Commander, one of the several titles used for military leaders on active campaign; less prestigious than Marshal (yuan-shuai) or Vice Marshal (fu yuan-shuai). RR: général en chef,

(3) CH'ING: Commander-in-chief, one in command of each Banner (ch'i) in the Eight Banners (pa ch'i) organization, rank 1b; in addition, one each in control of the tribal groups of Jehol and of Chahar. BH: lieutenant-general.

I am not sure what all of the abbreviations mean but if you need clarification I can get a hold of the print version and give you any supplementary info you need. Something tells me that you're writing your thesis on this Eight Banners organization ;P

[jbradfor]

 

I just want to know how you do a literal traslate of these three terms.

 

正参领 -- Upright Participate Neck

副参领 -- Secondary Participate Neck

协参领 -- Harmonious Participate Neck

 

As HSK 5, you should know what happens when you ask for a literal translation :-)   [Yes yes, I know 领 is also used for leader, I picked a different meaning for effect.]

 

I hope Mr Chen answered your question, since it seems you're getting frustrated.

 

If not, can you tell us WHY you want a literal translation?  Since you know Chinese, you should know that a literal translation is not useful.  And since you agree that you "don't like forcing a western concept onto a Chinese one.,  and, expecially a chinese onto a western one", then you know that finding a close Western approximation does not really benefit anyone, especially in an academic environment.   Are you asking for the closest Western version to help explain it?  Is is just because "my teacher asked me"?  If so, you need to explain to your teacher why that doesn't provide any benefit.

[gato]

Lost in translation, jbradford....

[陳德聰]

@jbradfor,

 

I think it's completely unnecessary to deliberately antagonize someone who has made it very clear what they are looking for, and why... I thought it was quite clear that literal translation was meant here as being in opposition to some sort of US equivalent.

In fact, "especially in an academic environment", it's important to stick to established norms for translation so that there is less confusion when trying to reconcile multiple works about the same topic. As far as I am aware, Hucker's dictionary is the dictionary for this purpose.

[jbradfor]

Sorry, it was truly not my intent to antagonize (deliberately or otherwise), I am truly confused as to the intent of the OP.

 

Yes, it's important to stick to established norms for translation.  As OneEye pointed out in post #6, however, there doesn't seem to be an established norm in this case.  [To me, "established norm" means "used in the vast majority of cases", not just "according to some expert".]  So where does that leave us?  Literal translation, approximate translation, or romanization.  One can argue the benefits of approximate translation (e.g. "Regimental Commander") vs romanization (e.g. "Canling").  All I'm asking is what is the benefit of an literal translation?  I think that's a fair question,.   Apparently, however, no one else thinks it's a fair question, so I'll stop now, with my apologies.

[OneEye]

Hm...I assumed OP had already looked it up in Hucker. Should have been the first place he looked. Not everyone uses Hucker's terminology though, and I'm under the impression that there are a lot of errors in the book, so a more specialized reference might be better if one exists. As I pointed out earlier, there is at least one scholar (Christopher Mills Isett) who uses "colonel." I wonder if Mark Elliot's book The Manchu Way mentions this rank and how he translates it. Or even Mote's Imperial China: 900-1800. I have both books, but they're in a box in the States right now.

[JackTheCrow]

thank u all for support, I've done!

[陳德聰]

Mark Elliott translates 都统 as "banner commander", and 参领 inconsistently as "colonel" or "lieutenant colonel".

Mote, I don't know exactly what he does, though I think he refers back to Hucker quite a bit.

[JackTheCrow]

Do you know other book about military rank system in China, from 1911 to now? pdf files are better.

[OneEye]

Shouldn't you know better than we would about the relevant books in your field? I mean, isn't this your thesis topic? Have you checked Wilkinson? Have you asked your professors?