How do you guys learn/maintain vocabulary?

[lakers4sho]

How do you guys learn vocabulary? And how are you able to maintain knowledge of learned words?

 

You read some passage, come across a new word, look it up in the dictionary, perhaps figure out how it's used in the sentence...and then what? Do you guys just shove it into the SRS deck and pretty much just keep drilling yourselves so you don't forget?

 

I'm new to this kind of learning so I just want to know what's effective for you guys. I'm at the stage where the readings are pretty advanced (at least for me) and there are times where I have to stop multiple times just to look up the definitions of new terms. I guess that's not the problem, what's frustrating me is that I forget a lot of these new words some time after I finish the reading, especially when I don't use them that often. So when I see the word again I have to look it up again (if I can't figure it out from context), even though I know that I've seen it before. That can be a waste of precious time sometimes.

 

lakers4sho

[anonymoose]

One thing to do is reread the material. It could be a week later, or a month later, or 6 months later, or preferably all three. This is a bit like SRS, but the advantage is that the words are in context.

[Nathan Mao]

SRS is a familiarity tool.  As everyone knows, the point is merely to increase repetition/familiarity until it becomes unforgettable.

 

But it isn't really using language.

 

I think of language vocabulary almost like a lattice of words/phrases attached to meanings.  When you learn a new language, you add more connections between words, terms, phrases, and meanings.  The more vocabulary you learn, the greater number of connections, which usually results in a richer ability with language.  That's why the more languages you learn, the easier it is: you already have an extremely rich, complex language lattice, so adding new words, terms, phrases and meanings is increasingly a smaller percentage of what you already know.

 

Another way to think about language ability is concentric circles.

 

Memorized language is a very small circle, relatively easy to acquire.

Survival language skills is a larger circle, encompassing the memorized language.  It isn't just new vocabulary, it includes new concepts, new grammar patterns, new ambiguity.

Concrete description skills is a larger circle around that.  Again: new vocabulary, new concepts, new grammar patterns, but not just a straight-line expansion of what you previously new with higher level vocabulary.  The amount of material you have to master to become skilled at concrete description is much larger.

And then again when you get into the abstract level.

And the next level beyond that.

 

What I'm getting at is that if you are reading at higher levels, the best way to continue to acquire vocabulary and increase your language skills is probably simply more reading.  SRS will help you memorize a character, but it won't give you context.  It won't give you all the different shadings of how it is used.  It is just a word, kind of floating out there in language space with nothing (or very little) to connect it to.

 

The more you read (and listen, and watch), however, the more you deepen and expand those connections, the context surrounding all those words.

 

 

Consider English.  When you encounter someone with an impressive vocabulary, did they get it by memorizing SAT vocab lists?  Or by being well-read?  99% of the time, it is the latter.

 

SRS is a tool that helps most in the early language stages.  But as you advance, your reliance on that tool should naturally diminish.

[imron]

Reading is also my primary method for doing this.  If you find that reading isn't helping, it might be that you are not reading regularly enough.  I've found that at least 30 mins a day is a good amount, and make sure you do it every day.  Consistency over a prolonged period of time is the key.

[AdamD]

You read some passage, come across a new word, look it up in the dictionary, perhaps figure out how it's used in the sentence...and then what?

 

My technique changes every few months but that's exactly what I'm doing now. Let's say your points are steps 1–4; I then:

 

5. Add it to my Pleco flashcard pack, which is by now totally insurmountable.

6. Write (and I do mean write, with a pencil) a few sentences using the word.

7. Write similar sentences using synonymous words, knowing there's a contextual difference I've not yet understood.

8. Ask a Chinese friend which ones are incorrect and why.

 

I see it as killing three birds with one stone because I a) learn a new word, b) learn how to write it and c) learn the difference between it and synonyms I already know.

[icebear]

SRS for much of my early-to-intermediate level studies. I still use SRS and think it has an important place in my current studies, although I've adjusted the scoring over time to be:

1) far more aggressive with pushing known items in the future

2) less aggressive with unknown items (e.g. halving scores rather than zeroing them out for failed cards)

3) pruning leeches - delete any card with a interval of less than 4 days after 10 attempts

 

This essentially converts the SRS technique into a "reminder" of words I known/should know, rather than a way to drill completely unknown words. For completely unknown vocabulary - I only add words that I encounter multiple times in my reading, and which I am familiar with the characters for already. Any word I'm adding to my SRS I've probably already looked up/encountered half a dozen times already in articles. I mostly read business articles, so the vocab is very repetitive. 

 

Which should make it clear that over time I've shifted from a heavy reliance on SRS to a habit of reading Chinese at least 5 days a week, at least 30 minutes on those days. Its a much more worthwhile means of "studying" - I'd recommend incorporating into your routine as soon as possible, using daycare/primary school materials if necessary (i.e. your vocab is low).

[Pingfa]

Constant immersive environment combined with SRS. Frequency of exposure is key.

 

The way I'm learning Japanese currently is I only watch stuff I'll be watching again. I learn all the sentences in an episode, I watch it multiple times until I feel comfortable enough to move onto the next. I reference these episodes frequently. Oftentimes when I haven't watched a certain episode for a while I forget some of the words in that episode, but the majority of the vocabulary will be more familiar to me since I've learned more since I last watched it.

To help me familiarize myself with the vocabulary, I SRS certain words in an easy to understand sentence. As a general rule, I only SRS sentences that are easy (if it's hard, it's above my level).

 

In short, I create a network of shows that I watch repeatedly. I learn all the vocabulary in an episode, and when I'm bored of learning vocabulary I watch episodes I'm already comfortable with. I'm progressing quite nicely this way as I'm getting a lot of frequent exposure and there's generally tons of new vocabulary in a single episode. 

 

I first started doing this with Chi's Sweet Home (a popular Japanese kids show that's often recommended for Japanese learners). As my vocabulary was very limited I had to look up a lot, so I would get a few minutes in, look up all the vocabulary, then repeat those few minutes until I felt I had the vocabulary memorized for the time being.

 

I learned Chinese similarly. I would have movies I like playing in the background throughout the day. Often I'd be SRSing while watching. I started learning characters by reading a short story over and over. This one, if you're interested: http://users.wfu.edu/moran/Black_Dragon_TOC.html

After that I started reading through a collection of short stories about peoples' experience in China. I'll have to do some looking around for that one.

[Baron]

Reading and listening to stuff. When you start hearing/seeing a word several times it's worth making the effort to remember it, and it's quite easy to remember as you've noticed it so much.

 

SRS is ok and I've been giving it a go in earnest recently. Although it helping passive knowledge, I can never really use or recall the words until I've heard/seen them in a meaningful context.

[Lu]

New words I look up and put in my SRS feed, usually with two sample sentences: one from the place I found it, and one from Nciku or elsewhere. I agree with other posters that you only really understand the sense of a word if you've seen it multiple times in context. The SRS learning is in the hope that next time I see the word, I recall the meaning and can thus better appreciate what exactly it does in that context.

[Guest realmayo]

I have a feeling that seeing a learned-but-not-very-well word in real life is many times more effective at lodging it properly into my memory, than SRS is. But I like to think that SRS is important because it works as a crutch to keep that word just about rememberable until I do get to see the word again in real life and dredge up its meaning from my memory -- and that process of real-life-remembering makes the memory much stronger for the future. Without SRS I think I might have forgotten that word completely by the time I see it for real, therefore there's no memory as such to reinforce, because the memory has vanished.

 

As for my SRS deck, I do the same as Lu. I try to make an effort to read the sentences when reviewing, but often am too lazy or in a rush. 

[Nathan Mao]

 

...you only really understand the sense of a word if you've seen it multiple times in context. The SRS learning is in the hope that next time I see the word, I recall the meaning and can thus better appreciate what exactly it does in that context.

 

At the risk of being pedantic, I'd like to point out that all Chinese characters change meaning in different contexts.  It is hard for me to think of a single character that has only one singular meaning. 

As such, Chinese combinations (words) also change meaning in different contexts.

 

One of the most dramatic is 组织, which can mean to organize, or can mean an organization.

Or 联系, which can mean to touch, contact, link, or integrate, but can also mean the noun form of any of these verbs.

 

So SRS is only as good as the definition you use with it.  The only way to really understand what 联系 can mean in different contexts is to encounter it in different contexts, repeatedly. 

 

Chinese really is like doing a crossword puzzle on the fly, sometimes. The meaning of words are rarely set in stone, and change according to what other words they appear with. The more you read, the more you learn.  After studying for 20 years, I still sometimes (often?) have to read sentences multiple times with different assumptions to get the meaning.

[Guest realmayo]

I'm not sure I agree. My SRS definition for 联系 could have "to touch, link, or integrate". And then I see it in the wild with a meaning "contact". So I mean, (a) that's hardly a big leap from the existing definitions, it's easy to infer and (b) I'll walk away with a stronger memory of what the word means than I had before.

 

This doesn't contradict what you say that the only way to "understand what 联系 can mean in different contexts is to encounter it in different contexts, repeatedly." But I don't think you have to correctly reproduce an exhaustive list of meanings for a word once it pops up as a flashcard -- the basic ones are enough to 'pass' the card, because SRS is not an alternative to reading, just a support to remembering.

[Nathan Mao]

[shrug]

Language acquisition is extremely fuzzy.

What's true for me may not be for you.

To me, flash card reading helps me recognize the word faster in context, but there are always subtle shadings from different contexts that can't be captured in a few English words on a flash card.

Then again, I also don't think of direct translations much anymore, I think in concepts that are expressed this way in Chinese, that way in English. What remains to me as a translator or communicator is to express or understand those as effectively as possible.

Flash cards just don't scratch the itch for me as much as reading native materials does.

But that shouldn't be taken as criticism for those who do have their itch scratched by flash cards.

[Lu]

Yes, that was a bit condescending. The notion that characters mean different things in different contexts is not exactly news. And words have subtly different meaning in context, well you don't say.

Some words are more suitable for SRS-ing than others. If a word has a very wide range of meanings, I rather don't put it in my SRS because I can't expect myself to cough up 4 or 5 translations on the fly. This also goes for many 'feelings' words, that have rather fuzzy meaning that is hard to pin down. This means I miss out on some knowledge, but so be it: the stuff that is missing I'll have to pick up from context or figure out if and when I encounter it.

FYI, one word having both a noun and a verb meaning is extremely common and in my opinion hardly an 'extreme' example. For 'extreme', consider 开张: to open [a shop, bar, what have you]; first transaction of the day; to be open [for shops]; to start, to begin; wide, expansive. This is the very outer limit of what I can put in my feed with it still being useful. Yet on the other end of that scale you have words like 集装箱 = container or 拆线 = to remove stitches. For such words you hardly need context to know what they do. Yes, SRS-ing is only as good as the quality of your deck, but there's no need to assume people don't have good decks.

[Nathan Mao]

It's only condescending if you take it in a condescending manner.

 

There are plenty of newcomers to language learning that are hung up on the notion of direct translations. It never hurts to help calibrate expectations.

 

Moreover, my language learning experience has been completely on my own for 18 years.  I didn't have a website like this to go to for guidance, or even language mentors to help me know what to expect.  As such, more than half the time when I throw out language learning philosophy points, I'm checking to see if anyone else has that same viewpoint or experience.

 

And, as I said, flash-card decks are not that helpful for me in learning/maintaining language. If it is for you, great!  I use them when I have time and no books available, but they aren't my first or most useful choice.

 

My style may be grating; I apologize for that, but I'm probably too old to change.  However, my intent to be helpful is genuine.

[Lu]

It's only condescending if you take it in a condescending manner.

No, some things really just are condescending. This quote, for example.

I realise that not everyone has the same experience and different people have different amounts of knowledge, but your disclaimer, and your assurance above that it might be 'pedantic' doesn't change how you sometimes come off. I'll stop here so as not to derail the thread further.

[Baron]

What's with the whole notion of 'Chinese words have so many meanings' thing? I've heard it so many times, but I've yet to see any evidence that Chinese words are any more ephemeral or polysemious than those in any other language. Does anyone have any kind of evidence or even anecdote to support the claim?

[jbradfor]

I was thinking the same thing.  What is certainly true (no proof provided, I'm just stating it 'cause it's so obvious it must be true) is that characters have so many different meanings compared to words.  And since many people (and textbooks) start by teaching characters, rather than words (at least I did, and my initial textbook did), it's easy to miss that distinction.

[Nathan Mao]

@Baron

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/14374-random-new-word-of-the-day/page-73#comment-329879

 

What's the definition of 让 vs 使 vs 要 when talking about letting/making someone do something?

Or 要 vs 想 vs 会 when talking about "will/want/must"?  For example, there are multiple ways to translate 我要去, completely dependent on context.

There is no single definition that works for each of those words that works universally, right?

 

公

 

会

 

给

 

A flash card for 给 will have a hard time encompassing all the different ways that 给 is used.

 

Okay, easy, right? Only have combination flashcards.

 

But then I ran across this phrase the other day: 发展中国家

If you think of 中国 only as China (which is the way flash cards would set you up for), you are going to get this wrong.  Context is absolutely different because the characters didn't break up into words the way an inexperienced reader might think.

I have a bunch of other examples that I can't locate right now where changing the combination of characters can change the meaning completely.  Knowing

 

So I probably spoke too carelessly when I said that Chinese words change meaning wildly, depending on context.  That was inaccurate.

 

What I should have said is that flashcards may be helpful to some in the beginning, but the more I've studied, the less helpful flashcards have become, because they imply set combinations of words, when words can be nouns, verbs, adjectives, have completely different meanings that seem unrelated (公 can mean male, common, public, just/fair, and others...), depending on how the sentence breaks up into combinations.

Even if you have all the possible translations on your definition side of the flashcard, knowing which one it is when you encounter it comes better from reading than from flashcards.

 

I think if you are in concrete language stages, flashcards work great.  But the more you move into abstract and more advanced topics, the more a character's meaning is determined by context that can't be fully captured on a flashcard.

[Baron]

That's a relevant point.

 

But do characters have many different meanings? They often have a basic concept which makes it fairly easy to get a general understanding understand a word you don't when it contains characters you do, it's just precise meaning that's lacking. An analogy would in English would be words like 'put' and 'get', that have a basic concept but different meanings in different contexts, especially when used with different prepositions.