Why did you leave China?

[hedwards]

I'm likely to be going back this year. I've been studying like crazy to improve my Chinese knowledge and I'm hoping to pass the HSK 4 before too long, but it's a long process.

 

The main reason that I left was that my working conditions were completely unstable and the recruiter I was working for was doing a poor job of passing information along to me from the schools. I'd be given 2 days notice and sent clear across the country without any indication as to why. Sometimes I was fired and other times it was more of a promotion, but it was incredibly stressful and frustrating to not be making any progress despite being very close to what the schools were wanting. The students loved me and were learning, and I got the distinct impression that I was being punished for that. After I was fired from one school I learned later on that the school ultimately deeply regretted the decision, but that didn't really mean anything practically as nobody in China ever admits they were wrong.

 

I was lucky, I was mostly working in smaller towns towards the west so the air wasn't as bad, I was mostly working in that corridor between Lanzhou and Guangzhou, so for the most part I was avoiding the worst of the pollution.

 

I think China is more of a grinder than most other countries are for the simple reason that it's such a challenge to know what's going on at any given time. If you're not one that's naturally inclined towards action without comprehension, it can be a really tough place to live.

 

But, that being said, I think it's easy to focus on the negatives and there were positives. The people were by and large very friendly, just as long as I wasn't doing business with them. The food was awesome and my health actually improved during the period I was there and started to decline significantly pretty much as soon as I returned to the US. My progress with learning to read Chinese would never have improved so quickly if I hadn't had the characters around me constantly. And thanks to the tonal nature of the language, I'm picking up on intonation patterns in other languages much more easily than before. There's also a part of my personality that needs chaos and I've grown to miss that aspect of the country.

[Simon_CH]

Thanks Mike, you managed to put into words a lot of things I am struggling with myself and which will likely (eventually) lead to me leaving China as well. 

 

As much as I am in a comfortable position here and have a great job, I just don't feel that my interest in China and Chinese is strong enough to ignore the negative aspects of living here in the long term. 

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for contributing, interesting read. 

[amandagmu]

I think China is more of a grinder than most other countries are for the simple reason that it's such a challenge to know what's going on at any given time. If you're not one that's naturally inclined towards action without comprehension, it can be a really tough place to live.

 

But, that being said, I think it's easy to focus on the negatives and there were positives. The people were by and large very friendly, just as long as I wasn't doing business with them. 

 

 

Yes! This perfectly encapsulates so well how I felt living there, too. I found average people to be very friendly, but I had the unfortunate need to access government-run archives for the purposes of historical research, meaning that I had to deal with university professors for introduction letters and guanxi, and numerous government bureaucrats and archivists on a daily basis -- many of whom were fine with me as long as I stuck to certain boundaries. And sometimes I had to warm up to them for weeks or months before they really let me see or do what I needed to see and do.

 

I also used to get last-minute requests from university professors and staff to drop everything and show up somewhere for a presentation, talk, dinner, workshop/conference, yada yada yada. I suppose if one is not trying to get much done other than socialize/present themselves as "the Western scholar" it's all fine and good, but I found it to be tiring and generally a waste of time, not to mention almost always inconvenient.

[Meng Lelan]

 I had to deal with university professors for introduction letters and guanxi, and numerous government bureaucrats and archivists on a daily basis -- many of whom were fine with me as long as I stuck to certain boundaries

 

 

 

This was exactly why I left China. I couldn't do anything for the deaf, blind, etc etc etc all because of introduction letters and guanxi being needed. If I ever start up a foundation for rehab of the sensory impaired I would do this in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, maybe even Japan. Then again maybe things will change/be different there after I work here in blind rehab for a decade or so. 

[dnevets]

Similar-ish to what an earlier contributor wrote: I had 3 fantastic years and wanted to offer my Chinese other-half the same opportunity, so here we are in the UK. We didn't leave because of pollution or corruption or any of the other hassles that have been mentioned. These are all things that I quickly grew used to (<squints eyes> hmm, not sure if that's a good thing...) so they genuinely don't bother me. Something I would often tell newbies arriving at my workplace in China: "It's not wrong, it's just different. You'll get used to it!" :-)

 

We've been here for 3 years now, which has brought us to the end of the original plan... The idea was that we'd then decide if we wanted to go back to China or not. If it was just about the two of us then I think we'd definitely be back there now. Life in the UK (northeast England) is less than exciting. The exact polar opposite of life in China. But things have changed for us now - 1 child, another on the way - so we need to think about the bigger picture. Hazy skies don't overly concern me personally, but my attitude to that changes greatly when it comes to my kids. Here, we live 5 minutes walk from the beach. The air is as about as clean as it gets in a developed country. There's also the education systems to weigh up (UK, not great. China, also rubbish, but in a different way... but that's a whole other topic). Not sure I could afford a fancy international school in China.

 

We still keep our connections to China though. We go back to China for a month every summer to catch up with family and friends (yes, I have a very understanding boss). Plus I'm lucky that a recent development at work means that I get to take a couple of short trips to China each year, the first of which I've just returned from.

 

Yes, China has undoubtedly changed and continues to do so. For the better? Well... again, that's a whole other topic. Regardless, I'm still very much in love with the place, and I can't see me ever losing that feeling. I imagine I'll continue to go back at least once every year for the foreseeable future, and if things (environment is naturally the biggest concern) change for the better then there's a good chance we'll end up living there again. I'm still interested in visiting lots of other countries, but I don't feel any desire to live in any of them and attempt to make the same kind of connection that I made with China.

[Chris Two Times]

My very first post on the forums! chinese-forums.com is such a great resource and I am glad that I have come across it.

 

"Why would you leave China?" I feel that I am heading in the other direction and only beginning my time in China once again. I am looking to stay put for a long while and see if I can create/do something "substantial" (whatever that means) this time around. I am not looking to leave China anytime soon, knock on wood. 

 

This is my second stint living and working in the Middle Kingdom (hence my username) and I am glad to be back. The first time I was here was from 2000 to 2003 with the Peace Corps. Those times were highly exciting and I was eager to stay here, free lance, and just see what would happen and what I would end up with. At that time I was looking to stay in China indefinitely.

 

But! A "little" thing called SARS happened and we were ordered to go home. I could have come back on my own but after those three years I decided that it was time to take care of some things in my home country for a while.

 

I ended up in Japan from 2007 to 2012 and really tried to kill my longing for China: "make yourself fall in love with Japan and fall out of love with China" was my mantra. I tried that approach for the first four years in Japan but gave up when I realized how feeble that was.

 

I returned to China in 2012 and am glad that I am back. Once again, I am looking to stay here indefinitely.

 

Even though it's fourteen years later, I still feel like I did before: I am in the right place at the right time. Things are exciting here. I do feel that there are opportunities and possibilities that can be had here. At the moment I feel optimistic. How long will I feel this way? Do I feel this way because I am a "China newcomer" (again)? What is the shelf life on such an outlook? I feel I have been lucky thus far, but how will I feel when I get burned a few times?

 

One other thing that I think about often: on both of my stints in China, I have been based in Chengdu, Sichuan. I wonder how different things would be for me if I were based in Shanghai or Beijing. Would things be better for me? Worse? Would I get burnt out? Would I not have such a positive outlook on things? The speed and style of Chengdu has suited me well and I have run with it.

 

I used to think that in order for me to stay in China, I would have to eventually end up in Beijing or Shanghai, but I no longer think that way. I feel that things could be all right for me if I stick to the second-tier cities. The second-tier cities definitely are much, much better than they were in 2000 (that's an understatement).

 

Well, to stick to the topic, what would take me out of China? When the positive outlook burns out; when I look beyond China and come across better possibilities and opportunities; and, as many alluded to, if I were to get married and have kids--that would then be a game-changer and I would look for a better environment for my family; China is all right for a single guy, but with a family? I dunno about that.

 

This is a great topic. Many thanks for posting it roddy!

 

Warm regards,

Chris

[Lu]

I ended up in Japan from 2007 to 2012 and really tried to kill my longing for China: "make yourself fall in love with Japan and fall out of love with China" was my mantra. I tried that approach for the first four years in Japan but gave up when I realized how feeble that was.

I returned to China in 2012 and am glad that I am back. Once again, I am looking to stay here indefinitely.

Even though I have left and am glad I have, I entirely, entirely understand this feeling. I'm happy for you that you're back!

[anonymoose]

I'm curious, what was Japan lacking that China has? I mean, I know they're very different, but personally, my main reason for coming to China in the first place was because I wanted to learn Chinese. But I could imagine that I'd be just as happy in Japan learning Japanese.

[Red Dragon]

Hi, Chris.  This is also my first post on this forum.  You're right, seems like a legit forum for once from what I've seen.  It sounds like you are in a similar age bracket as I'm in.  I currently teach English in South Korea, but have come to a place where I think change is a good thing.  I have been looking into China and it appears that I have landed a job with an international school in Qingdao.  I'm both excited and apprehensive at the same time, and I can relate to your thoughts.  Will be interesting to hear how things unfold for you.  All the best.  

[trinifinn]

I had a brief interlude in China 98-99 1.5 years split between Nanjing (language study), Beijing (EU training) and Shanghai (banking internship), sandwiched between working in Japan and UK. It was a fascinating time and unique experience, and the reason I didn't stay on - as I recall - is staying on at the German bank in my first financial services job seemed too off-the-beaten path as financial markets were in their infancy. (I ended up on a 6 year hiatus from financial services anyway though) Looking back at the 45 Europeans on that first EU training program, the interesting fact was that those who seemed to struggle the most learning Chinese in the lower level classes made up those who stayed on long term. I moved to HK via a circuitous route 4 years ago, but do not count this as China experience - HK is a hybrid English city hanging on precariously to the PRC, the most dynamic and best place to live in world in my view (best of both worlds) It's like a cocoon, spending less than a week per year across the border. Resurrecting Mandarin Chinese skills here is a challenge, but I will be facing down my nemesis HSK-5 in 18 days.

[Brian US]

My love-hate relationship with China has lasted nearly five years. I have two months left before I return to the US and my reasons for leaving have already been discussed by several other posters. For me, my departure is mainly due to the low compensation of professional jobs in China, difficulty in settling down (house+car), the healthcare system, and the desire to live in a 1^st world country.

 

I did not want to teach and that has led me to compete against the waves of fresh Chinese business graduates. Although I have done alright in finance and law here, the salary growth in the US is far more enticing long-term. China has, and will always be my “insurance” for my professional career if I need to jump ship 10, 15, or 20 years later.

 

------------------------------

 

These forums have been a great community over the years, and although I haven’t been active lately, I will always appreciate the advice I received from its members. So in the spirit of building the community, I thought I may also share my story in hopes it will be of some help/interest to those who plan to come or leave China.

 

My story begins in university in the US where I had interest in learning another language since I failed so miserably with French, Latin, and Spanish in middle and high school. Being a business student, I gravitated towards Chinese as a minor and this led to my first study abroad trip to Beijing in 2007. The several weeks at BLCU were great and sparked further interest in continuing my language studies and possibly returning to China after graduation in 2009.

 

The financial crisis reinforced my views of language and cultural skills being insurance for my future professional career. My home state of Michigan was hit particularly hard and it was common to see family members lose their jobs so close to retirement. The bank I worked for failed overnight, and although I saw it as just a college job, it wasn’t a pleasant experience for the older full-time staff. I knew if I was going to commit to learning Chinese, now was my chance since I wasn’t tied down.

 

I originally planned to study for one or two years and then head back to the US. After a year at BLCU, I heard of the CSC scholarship through classmates and stumbled upon the CSC topic on this forum. I decided to apply for a master’s degree since I thought it would increase my odds of getting the scholarship even if I only planned to stay for 1-2 more years. I was accepted to study at Renmin University, where I would have one more year of language followed by a two-year master’s program. I quickly lost interest in my language studies once I reached upper intermediate. The stories of an old man going to the park to feed the birds hardly seemed worth my time before starting a business degree. Little did I know that nothing would have prepared me for my master’s degree, especially not the university staff.

 

The first semester did not go well. I was the only international student and I did not expect the courses to revolve around research with such little consideration for international students. I tried to switch majors, but the faculty, classmates, and professors all told me to stick it out. After the first semester I was done; I was going to drop out, move to Harbin, and then everything would be OK! I called my parents, convinced myself and then my mother, moving to near-Siberia would be the most logical step in my young 20-something life. It was only my father and best friend that held me back. My best friend was a bitter westerner and high-school drop out that had spent too much time in China. He was finally getting his bachelor’s degree and considered me an idiot to drop out now. So I did it, I finished my degree against the odds as the only other international student (Japanese) in a similar department (same advisor) failed his thesis defense and only received a certificate.

 

At that point in my life I probably would have tried to make a break into finance/investment banking in Shanghai or Hong Kong if it weren’t for a special gal. She was from the US and it was a breath of fresh air to hear of life outside of Michigan or China. In the nearly five years in China I had never even gone on a date with a Chinese woman, so my special lady was just one more reason to not settle down in China. Like others mentioned, the difficulties of starting a family here in China just wasn’t something that would keep us both here long-term.

 

I’ve worked at a law firm in Beijing for a year since graduating, and I now have two months left before going back state-side. I finally received the cushy office job with benefits and 401k that China just couldn’t provide. My significant other may stay in China for another year, but I hope it won’t be long before she buys that last one-way ticket like I have.

[roddy]

Excellent tale, Brian, hope everything goes well for you in the US. And don't forget us.

[Chris Two Times]

anonymoose,

 

I dunno. In my five years in Japan, I guess I accomplished all I had set out to do. I didn't really come across viable job prospects to keep me in Japan and it didn't feel fresh anymore. I don't feel the same way about China--the place doesn't get old for me. The country is so huge and there is so much for me to see; I am getting started with the HSK and I want to keep going with language study and could study here full-time for a year or more for cheap or on scholarship; I am a teacher here and the students I have taught have been diligent and enthusiastic (not necessarily true of my Japanese students).

 

I loved studying Japanese, but after continually failing JLPT level N2, I just lost heart. Japanese is a fun language to study though and I found the Japanese to be very warm-hearted and highly supportive of my efforts when I used Japanese.

 

Red Dragon,

 

If you've made it to Qingdao, I hope things are going well for you. Enjoy!

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[liuzhou]

 

Haven't seen any posts from @Liuzou in a long time. Did he move home too? Pretty sure I recall there was some mention of that possibility.

 

Wow! I just found this old post.

 

No. I haven't left, nor do I intend to. I just had some health issues and ducked down for a while. I have recovered and am creeping back. Thanks for your concern.

[abcdefg]

Welcome back.

[MarsBlackman]

To sum it up, China just isn't offering me what I currently want out of life. 

 

It may be relevant to note that all of my time in China, outside of traveling, has been spent in Dongbei (Harbin, Shenyang, Dalian).

 

For the past 2+ years, I've worked for a U.S. company in China working with some state-owned companies. I'm blessed to have had the opportunity to work in China at a young age (mid 20s), especially as an engineer. However, the daily grind of life in China has just worn me down. I simply need to get some distance from the mainland and re-evaluate how much time I actually want to physically spend in China.

 

Its difficult to maintain an active lifestyle...outdoors. Pollution is an obvious concern as many have already mentioned. But the urban sprawl of Chinese cities makes it very time consuming to simply get out into some green space. I've simply become stir-crazy. Work-life balance is important. For me that includes being outside without worrying about the AQI.

 

I simply need a more stimulating work environment. I find work involving China to be interesting, yet the atmosphere of a Chinese office to be dull. Despite the obvious anxiety of crowds and traffic, I find people in China to be pretty happy and laid back in their daily lives. While that is refreshing and enjoyable for living/studying in China, the way it manifests in business/office culture is frustrating. In my experience, most people simply go through the motions. I've also seen very little personal responsibility. People tend to work in silos and work very slowly. I also see room for improvement in leadership as well as critical thinking and problem solving. I realize much of this might be a product of the the state-run system and 铁饭碗. Unfortunately, this work environment has caused me to be hyper-sensitive to these shortcomings outside of the office. I've had great experiences in China, but my view is currently filtered through the negative lens of work, hence the need for a change. I'm just grateful I'm conscious of it. 

 

I also got sick with food poisoning a couple weeks ago and was worried about dehydration. Thankfully, I didn't have to go to the hospital to get an I.V. It got me thinking about how I don't trust the healthcare system here...at all. Combine that with many foreigners saying they don't want to raise their kids in China and it really makes me think about the quality of life in China, even for expats. What sacrifices are we all willing to make?

 

Also, when the government has to post guidelines on behavior when traveling abroad, not even one specific country but just generally speaking, it makes me question how much I should write off as my own cultural insensitivity or whether my frustrations about some people's behavior are justified.

 

I still have some Chinese language goals that I haven't quite met. I plan on heading to Taipei in the fall before further grad school plans in the U.S. next year. My main draw to China and learning Chinese is the challenge of understanding the place but I'm not quite sure how much I enjoy being immersed in Chinese society. I'm hoping my time in Taipei will provide clarity on whether I want to continue physically working in the mainland full-time, or work with China in some other capacity, all while not being under the security blanket of home. One foot in, one foot out if you will. I'm not sure living in China is a good fit for me. I need some time away to fully figure it out.

[Angelina]

Thanks MarsBlackman. Really honest and deep post. 

 

My experience in China has been similar. However, I haven't decided if I want to leave China or stay and fight.

 

I simply need a more stimulating work environment. I find work involving China to be interesting, yet the atmosphere of a Chinese office to be dull.

 

Grad school in China is similar. While research involving China is interesting, it gets boring. 

 

I might decide not to leave China because of the people here who are a source of inspiration despite the problems. The reason why I might leave China is pollution. Maybe it is just too dangerous. 

[roddy]

Thanks for posting that. Sounds a little similar to what I did, spending six months in Hong Kong and Taipei after leaving Beijing. Let us know how you get on....

[Pokarface]

Great stories!

To think of all the online flashy advertisers promising to teach Chinese for better jobs prospects vs. how unlikely those prospects are actually materialized  ,

and even if they do materialize, there are still  issues with pollution and health  . Would you really want those trade-offs?

[Meng Lelan]

To think of all the online flashy advertisers promising to teach Chinese for better jobs prospects vs. how unlikely those prospects are actually materialized

 

 

 

There's an article on Reuters from yesterday that discusses this issue, how U.S. students are losing interest in learning Chinese because job prospects seem unlikely.