Why did you leave China?

[xiaojiang216]

And here is the thread with the link to that article, for those who are interested. I myself am headed home for at least a few months. Not sure where I'll be after that, but more on that later

[Pokarface]

I also think that the older generation of Westerners who learned Chinese and lived in China are back to their home countries. Maybe the younger generation learning Chinese has heard of them (reading blogs or in person) and are not impressed with the outcomes in life the older generation had while living in China. Or even if they are impressed about the cultural enriching experience, they would probably still have the same health and career progression concerns that have been mentioned in this thread.

[amandagmu]

 

My main draw to China and learning Chinese is the challenge of understanding the place but I'm not quite sure how much I enjoy being immersed in Chinese society. I'm hoping my time in Taipei will provide clarity on whether I want to continue physically working in the mainland full-time, or work with China in some other capacity, all while not being under the security blanket of home.

 

I feel like I could write the same thing. Sometimes I feel guilty for admitting that I love so many things about China - people I've met there, various aspects of the language, culture and history - but that I can't stand living in the country for long periods of time for the reasons I've previously mentioned. The grind of the place, pollution and the inability to do anything outdoors, constant illness (sinus infections, food poisoning), and food scandals (I have a sensitive stomach and am a vegetarian as it is), are pretty much all related to why I ended up studying intensive Chinese at ICLP in Taipei and doing a Ph.D. in Chinese history at a U.S.-based university. I admit that while I found living on the mainland somewhat helpful for my research (depending on the political environment at any given moment), I dreaded it every time and kept a countdown to times I could leave again. Also, depending on what you're interested in studying, i.e. if it's sensitive or not, it can actually be better to study/research OUTSIDE the mainland... this is something that is, however, rarely funded. Funding models like Fulbright IIE often require living in the country for a year even if that doesn't help your research very much.

 

In Taipei it's far easier to work - no surprise given the political environment there - and I did a lot of running, hiking, and cycling while I lived there. It's easy to get out of the city real fast, even to beaches. I can provide details if you're curious.

[Meng Lelan]

In Taipei it's far easier to work - no surprise given the political environment there - and I did a lot of running, hiking, and cycling while I lived there. It's easy to get out of the city real fast, even to beaches. I can provide details if you're curious

 

 

 

My sons and I are curious, would like details please. We run and hike but don't do cycling. 

[Pokarface]

@amandagmu. If you start a blog or threat with details, I'll follow it and cheer for you :-)

[MarsBlackman]

@amandagmu:  I'll be headed to ICLP as well. I found your comments encouraging. Its difficult for me to escape a "China or bust" mentality when I've years learning the language and culture to eventually be capable of fully functioning in the country independently, only to want to leave. However, I suppose its not giving up, but rather moving on to the next chapter in life. I've NEVER heard somebody leave China and say they're never coming back. Everybody comes back in some capacity, whether a business trip or personal visit. 

[Angelina]

Everybody comes back in some capacity, whether a business trip or personal visit. 

 

Or research interests. I don't think I will ever leave China in that respect. 

 

@amandagmu, do you think studying Chinese history is a sensitive topic? I think history departments around the world teach mostly political history, thus if you want to study history you have to mind the political system. Maybe now in China they don't even mention certain topics or events, which obviously can't happen in academia. 

 

What I have learned from linguistics is that although in China they don't have the tradition Slavic languages have (linguistics is relatively new in China), going to graduate school here has given me a unique perspective. I might not stay, but I will not say it's a bad idea. 

[Simon_CH]

 

 

 I think history departments around the world teach mostly political history, thus if you want to study history you have to mind the political system.

 

I think you underestimate universities in that regard. You can study just about any aspect or political viewpoint of history at European or American universities, including a critical understanding of history with a marxist-leninist perspective with no problems whatsoever. The UK has a Communist Party that openly supports the North Korean regime and has a weekly publication. There is no indication that the teaching and study of history has a political leaning that I'm aware of. 

 

But back to the topic. Most people I know who have left China don't stop working in or with China in some regard, they just don't want to live there anymore. 

[studychinese]

I can't say that I really left because I never really lived there, apart from a three months stay 4 years ago. That said I don't think that I have the stomach (literally) to live in China long term. My plumbing gets all messed up and I am sick all the time there. It's hard to believe that more than a billion people living in China seem to be relatively healthy despite all the food safety and pollution issues.

[Simon_CH]

 

 

 It's hard to believe that more than a billion people living in China seem to be relatively healthy despite all the food safety and pollution issues.

 

I think that's a bit of a misperception to say the least: 

 

 

 

More than 3 million people die prematurely each year in China from diseases that are largely preventable, according to a report released on Monday by the World Health Organization. (...) Alarmingly, the report reveals that nearly 4 in 10 deaths from chronic disease in Chinese men, and around 3 in 10 such deaths among Chinese women, are premature — that is, occurring before the age of 70.

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-01/20/content_19352792.htm

 

Search for the prevalence of diabetes for example, they are rapidly overtaking even relatively unhealthy Western countries. Life expectancy is also not great, especially for people in the North. So in short I think it's a myth that the Chinese population is relatively healthy compared to their Asian peers. 

 

Personally I always struggle with cough and minor illnesses when in China, but nothing that could make me move so far. But I feel much healthier after just a few months in Europe. 

[abcdefg]

I have a surgeon friend here in Kunming who specializes in doing laparascopic lobectomies for people with lung cancer. His business is booming. When I ask him about lung cancer stats in Yunnan, where every male above the age of about 10 seems to smoke, he just shakes his head.

 

He and his team talk about "cancer villages" in rural Yunnan where 60 or 70 percent of the residents have one or another specific respiratory cancer. He said it is usually the result of a high concentration of a specific industrial pollutant plus the ubiquitous cigarette smoke.

[shuoshuo]

In my opinion, because it's not possible to be a naturalized citizen (minus the green card thing), most foreigners here probably do eventually plan to leave. It's just a question of "when".

For me, I definitely want to leave one day. I can't stand how Asians in general kiss-up to Westerners. This place is becoming more and more like the West, and I don't understand how a large population with thousands of years of history (and a beautiful history at that!) are so quick to throw away their way of life just so they can copy the Western countries and *hopefully be just as great.

My country is nowhere as old as China, yet one day I personally witnessed an American making a scene and telling a local back home "well in America, I wouldn't have to wait this long (for a document to be processed)" and the lady responded "well sir, this is not America". Here in China, I've seen Westerners tell Chinese "no, in my country we do it this way" and the Chinese will reply with a "sorry, ok I will do it like that". SORRY! There must be something seriously wrong with you if you are in your own country and a foreigner tells you how to live your life and you just bend over and take it.

Don't get me wrong, I like McDonalds, Starbucks and Subway. But I don't get how foreigners can be here for 10 years and not know how to speak the language. I asked an Australian once what annoys him most about the Chinese in Australia and he replied "those that don't even try to integrate, they live in Australia but refuse to speak English!".

If I wanted to live in the West, I wouldn't be living in China. The moment I feel this place has completely changed to a non-Asian place, I'd leave. I hope the government takes bigger measures to preserve the culture of this place. Christmas and Halloween are now celebrated here...what's next?

[GotJack]

Shuoshuo do you think this opinion is perhaps influenced by you being in Shanghai? (I would say the most Westernised city, not including HK) because in my experience the large majority of China isn't really so significantly 'Westernised' as to warrant your criticism. IMO people seem to have a respect and desire to hold onto their own culture and history, whilst not letting this blindly and totally hinder improve their life quality.  I mean clearly an increase in Mcdonalds and Starbucks can be said to be becoming Westernised, but attempting to improve efficiencies of document processing isn't.

[shuoshuo]

Yes, I probably get a full dose of all this because I'm in Shanghai. But surely the other cities will follow suit soon enough? It's just a matter of time. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of things about the Western culture...I just really dislike the fact that the locals want to turn this place into a photocopy of the West. Worst of all, they ruin the very essence of holidays esp.Christmas (Christmas is a religious holiday!).

I don't understand why the government is spending so much money promoting the Chinese language and culture (e.g. Hanban/Confucius Institute) when they're doing the complete opposite of that outside these small community circles.

Perhaps I shouldn't take things too personally, but if I ever have kids I'd like them to grow up in a more culturally-stable society.

[Meng Lelan]

Reminds me of how I used to teach in the Confucius Institute here in Texas and the parents would be surfing the net, reading novels, composing emails, and making phone calls in English while kids were in Chinese class. 

[Simon_CH]

China is Westernising? That's a new one to me, certainly doesn't feel that way in Beijing. In fact just like Japan, I feel modernising the country will eventually strenghten, not weaken the culture. Just because the retail industry has embraced a couple of Western holidays doesn't mean that many Chinese (who aren't Christian) are celebrating it. 

[Angelina]

 In fact just like Japan, I feel modernising the country will eventually strenghten, not weaken the culture.

 

Which can have its negative effects. Look at what the Japanese army was doing. 

 

I personally don't like the obsession with money, power, and social status. I have seen too many super competitive, stuck-up, nouveau riche. This is not a good environment to raise your children in.

 

Every single person I have talked to about pollution has said that they need to pass this phase and then everything will be fine, how 'the West' had to go through the same predicaments when they were developing, and China needs to do this in order to catch up. It's so cold and feels so wrong. 

[gato]

Europe seems to be Westernizing, too. There were quite a few McDonald's and KFCs when I was there last. It seems that there is no place to hide. ;-)

If I were to leave China, the main reason would be that I don't want my kid to grow up in a country where is no freedom of expression, where the culture is rigidly controlled by the government and is unable to grow and diversify. You can see a markedly difference if you compare mainland China with Taiwan, where martial law was lifted thirty years ago. In Taiwan, the culture is much more diverse and gentle. Traditional culture is able to rest much more naturally alongside the modern.

What one sees in China is the harsh logic of "might makes right" of Leninism/Maoism reflected in the new light of State Capitalism. It is very efficient in some sense but is also very suffocating.

[Angelina]

Europe seems to be Westernizing, too. There were quite a few McDonald's and KFCs

 

Not in my country, we have no McDonald's and no KFCs. 

 

Options for eating out in China:

 

1. McDonald's;

2. Gutter Oil;

3. Luxury. 

 

Every time I discover an exception I celebrate it as if I discovered a cure for cancer. 

[GotJack]

Out of interest, Is there anything you celebrate about Western culture and would be happy to see China embrace?