Hitting a wall

[Melanie1989]

Hi guys,

So after stalking the website for a while now, i decided to finally join. I have found the site to be very helpful while i have been learning so thanks everyone. I am just curious to know mostly if anyone else has hit a roadblock, so to speak, as far as their journey to Chinese fluency is concerned. What i mean is, i have been studying for maybe a year now purely using using the internet. There are no learning centres where i live (North East England) and the college courses are a little too expensive for me right now. Most only offer beginner's courses anyway and (at least most of the time) i feel like i'm ahead of that stage. Slightly.

 

I've just kind of got to a point where i don't know where to go next. I need to brush up on my listening skills but can't find much available, strangely enough. I loved the Happy Chinese learning series, but sometimes Sushan is just too much for me. Most other things i find are either a little too pornographic for my taste or are all about martial arts, which just makes me sleepy. I need to brush up my reading and writing skills too, but i have no idea how else to go about that. Right now i recognise maybe 60 characters but sometimes i recognise them but don't know how to pronounce it, or remember what it means. The limited amount of characters i know now, well, i don't know how i memorised them. I haven't been actively ''trying'' to remember them. 

 

Has anyone else hit this roadblock before? And how did you get past it? If anybody's fluent (whatever language you're fluent in, providing it's not your native tongue of course), i would love to hear about how you became so. I am really borderline desperate right now, i love Chinese so much and this is the only thing (and i'm not proud of this) that i've ever actually stuck with. Usually, i just give up on things after a certain point, but this i want to be like a native. I also still sound like some silly 老外 when i speak Chinese. You can tell i'm white and it's just not fluid enough........

 

Ugh, anyway, sorry for such a long boring post and thanks for reading. 

[Bigdumogre]

Free options would be: get stuff from local library. Through mine I got first 4 pimsluer sets and many books. They had none at that location but ordered them for me.

Money option would be to order new practical Chinese reader. Learning a lot from it and only a few chapters in.

[Demonic_Duck]

I'm not sure even Chinese people would call you a 老外 if you're living in your native country. On second thoughts, though, what with the amount of material that's marketed as "Chinese for foreigners"... anyway, don't worry about being white, there's no shame in it. Don't worry about "having an accent" either; instead, worry about having good pronunciation. This means that the sounds you produce are recognisable as the words you're intending to produce, without undue strain on the part of your interlocutor. In other words, worry about incorrect tones by all means. Worry about saying "学习" as "水洗". But don't worry about "sounding like a 老外".

 

Also, what do you mean by "too pornographic"? I mean, China's pretty anti-porn as secular countries go, the most explicit things you'll see on TV or in films (at least ones from the mainland) still seem tame by western standards. "拒绝黄，拒绝赌，拒绝黄赌毒" and all that (say no to sexual immorality, say no to gambling, say no to drugs... the wonderfully inspirational and uplifting song they play at KTV places as you walk in).

 

Either way, I strongly suggest you find yourself a language exchange partner. Before you get started, set expectations - what do you want out of the exchange? How much correction do you want/expect? Set up an arrangement whereby you will converse in English for an hour, then Chinese for an hour. Maybe set a topic. After the first exchange, assuming it went well, set up another.

 

As for self-study, there are plenty of good options out there - graded readers (e.g. Chinese Breeze 汉语风) which can help you with both characters and listening (I'd suggest training listening first with the audio version, and only reading afterwards). For your character knowledge, Skritter gets good reviews around these parts, although it's not free. Never used it myself, though.

[renzhe]

Everybody hits a wall with Chinese. Working through plateaus is the number one question intermediate people ask.

My approach is attacking it with lots of volume.

[Melanie1989]

Thank you for all the advice you guys. i guess one good thing i do have going for me is passion. The more i learn, the more i love it, i have never once got bored. I will try out the suggestions and also keep scouring the site. i have a list of things to check out written on my hand (silly bugger, i just realised i have a notebook behind my head).

 

The sounding like a white girl comment was only cos i want to go to China some day. I'd love to spend a year there and not have to speak a word of English, but i just feel stupid cos i sound very English. i think my pronunciations are ok, as far as people being able to understand, but i just don't feel i sound natural enough. i don't know.

 

I have tried language exchange but it seems that the ones i have spoken to only want help with their English tests, then mysteriously disappear when i have helped them pass a test. Also, the time difference seems to be a big issue. by the time i'm free, they're in bed.

 

The films i find do just seem to be porn though. Maybe they are Taiwanese or something, where maybe the censorship is lessened? I am not sure, but that's youtube for you i guess. I just want something i can watch and not get distracted haha.

 

Thanks again guys, much appreciated. i will check out everything mentioned now.

[Ruben von Zwack]

I think as long as they can understand you, Chinese people will be happy, and the way you speak will improve automatically anyway, the more you speak to Chinese people.

 

If I were you, I would work through a proper text book or two and learn a few hundred words and characters (I mean all three: pronunciation and understanding, plus  reading the characters) cause I think that will just automatically solve a lot of other problems.

[renzhe]

The films i find do just seem to be porn though. Maybe they are Taiwanese or something, where maybe the censorship is lessened? I am not sure, but that's youtube for you i guess.

There is no porn on youtube.

EDIT: Well, it's explicitly prohibited and removed as soon as somebody flags it: https://www.youtube.com/t/community_guidelines

Surprising that you would run into it, really. Flag it and it will be down in minutes.

[Melanie1989]

No porn on youtube? Are you kidding? Hehehee, this is getting way off topic. Yes there is, lots of Asian porn in particular...........anyway..........

[imron]

I'm not sure even Chinese people would call you a 老外 if you're living in your native country.

Oh they definitely will.

[johnk]

Everybody hits a wall with Chinese.

I was going to give up just as soon as I passed HSK1, but somehow HSK1 wasn't enough and HSK2 beckoned. Same with HSK3 and then HSK4. I will definitely never do HSK5.

 

About 3 months ago, I decided I really needed to do some work related studies so Chinese had to go.

That has not worked out so well. For example, since coming home from work today, I have browsed this site, then I went to wikpedia and found a short article in Chinese which I copied it out by hand for practise. If I don't copy something from wikipedia, then I usually find something on the BBC zhongwen site to copy.

Now I am going to fire up my media player and look at the latest episode of a soap opera I found at http://www.youku.com/show_page/id_zcbff1458962411de83b1.html I download one episode every Sunday and spend some time watching/listening/noting vocab every day. I did try the TV show  家有儿女, but I didn't like it. There are lots of suggestions for TV shows to watch on the Chinese television forum. Some of them have neither martial arts nor porn.

 

I am also making half-hearted efforts to read some books. I have a hard copies of 活着, 八十天环游地球 and on my phone there is a downloaded copy of 老人与海

Typically I just read a page or two at a time. The number of words/characters I have to look up is slowly getting less and less.

 

I guess the advice about 'hitting a wall' is to keep at it. Try doing something different occasionally, watch a TV show or read an article on wikipedia. (I usually read an article in English and then click on the 中文 link to see the Chinese version). It is relatively easy to read stuff from the Internet if you have perapera installed on Firefox.

Most of the time, I don't feel like I am making much progress. Last week I read almost a full chapter of 八十天环游地球. With just a little more practise, I will be able to read it without looking up anything. Or at least that is what I have been telling myself for the past 6 months.

[Melanie1989]

Hahaha, i don't mind being called 老外，i just don't want to sound like one when i'm there. I know i'll still stand out like a sore thumb but i kinda see it as going to China and ordering English food or something. Refusing to use squat toilets, maybe. You know, why bother doing something if you're not going to really go for it, blah blah blah. I know what i mean, i just haven't slept much. Anyway.

 

Johnk, thank you so much for your comment! It was very helpful and i kind of know the feeling you describe. To be fair, i never feel like i'm progressing but then recently i actually thought something in Chinese!! I've also started using Chinese grammar in English sentences, which is weird, but actually helping everything ''click'', i guess. Your suggestions are really helpful so thanks again, i will check out your links now. And good luck with your learning!

 

Renzhe, i have no problem with porn, providing of course it's legal, it's just a little annoying that it's so easy to stumble across. Either way, no matter how many times it's flagged -and there's a LOT of it- it's always going to keep popping up. I actually found a learn Chinese channel on YT that has two semi-naked Chinese girls making out. That was weird. But hey, lots of people are into that and now they know it exists, i hope it helps!

[renzhe]

Ah, you found Sexy Mandarin then.

Hardly porn, but certainly one of the most ridiculous ways to learn Chinese. You could also try Xiao Li, that's my favourite

[Melanie1989]

Ha, no that's not porn, just inappropriate for learning. At least for me, i'm sure it would help some. That just came as a surprise, cos it wasn't actually on their channel, someone else had stolen it and not put up any pre-warning. Quite a surprise at 8am, i can tell you!

 

Xiao Li, i will have a look at that too, 多谢！Just warn me if it is sexual as i am drinking hot tea 

[AdamD]

The good news about plateaus is that they're usually false. Every plateau I've ever experienced has been followed by a sudden jump in ability, which indicates that all the work I put in during the plateau just needed time to take effect. I've heard similar reports from many other people. Given that you're working so hard, I reckon you'll find you're the same.

For listening skills, TV and movie recommendations are all well and good if your comprehension is quick enough, but if you're anything like me you need something slower. Slow Chinese is free and fairly well known around these forums. Also, beginner level readers include CDs that you can use to follow the text, and many of them are spoken quite slowly. I'm using this one right now.

This thread contains some excellent tips to enhance your listening skills, mainly around repeating short passages ad nauseam until you understand every single word. I started last week and I swear it's already paying off.

Regarding reading and writing skills: At beginner level, the best technique I've found is to break down characters into their constituent parts, and make up stories that help remember the full character and its pronunciation and tone. I've used all these books in the past:

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Learning-Chinese-Characters-v-1-Alison-Matthews/9780804838160
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-1-Book-1-James-W-Heisig/9780824833237
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Chinese-Characters-Richmond-Harbaugh/9780966075007

The first two are good for beginners, and even provide hundreds of stories to get you going. The third is tough going initially but it became my sole reference for two years.

These techniques will help you retain what you've already learnt:

1. Flashcards, using a smartphone/tablet app like Pleco that lets you draw each character on the screen.

2. Writing characters with a pencil, making notes and inventing mnemonics as you go. Everyone's different, so once you find what works for you you'll really start to pick up speed.

3. Having some Chinese resources to hand: news web sites, cheap magazines, short novels. When I was at the 60 character mark, browsing modern Chinese text was helpful simply because I could spot characters I had learnt. The joy of recognising something in the wild was always incentive enough for me to keep working, even though I couldn't understand any complete sentences.

The long-term goal of all this work is to force your brain to adapt. Part of acquiring language skills is the change of brain function, which takes time and effort. Neuroplasticity is a fascinating principle to dig into if you're so inclined.

[Demonic_Duck]

Never heard of "Sexy Mandarin", but in my experience things that try to sell sex and education at the same time end up not satisfying on either count.

 

As for what I said about finding a language exchange partner, I really meant you ideally want to find one that you can regularly meet up with in person, thus eliminating problems with time differences and dodgy Skype connections. And again, set aside an hour of each exchange for English and an hour for Chinese (or more/less depending on your overall time constraints). This way you're making sure you don't get "short-changed", as it were.

[anonymoose]

It's good that you've found an interest that you want to stick with, and of course if you're having fun along the way, that's the main thing.

 

However, I would just like to give you some perspective on this. It sounds like you haven't had much exposure to foreign language study.

 

60 characters is a good start. However, hardcore learners here learn that number in a weekend. I don't consider myself a hardcore learner, but 60 characters is more than managable in a couple of weeks.

 

If you really want to get to the stage of fluency, and presumably literacy, I think you need to give yourself a study plan with significant progression. If you are already languishing at 60 characters, you'll never get to 600 let alone the 3000 or so that you need at a minimum to be competent in Chinese.

 

I suggest you set yourself a plan to learn 10 new words a day, or if that's too much, then at least 5 new words. At ten new words a day, that's over 3000 in one year, which will give you noticable progress. If you learn too slowly, you won't have enough momentum to make progress. You'll be forgeting at the same rate that you're learning, due to lack of practise and use.

 

Also note that learning a language is a long, sometimes life-long journey, especially one as challenging as Chinese. So don't feel disheartened if you aren't fluent after a few months or even a few years. Just make sure that you are constantly making progress. That way you will always be getting closer to your goal, no matter how far off it is.

[AdamD]

60 characters is a good start. However, hardcore learners here learn that number in a weekend. I don't consider myself a hardcore learner, but 60 characters is more than managable in a couple of weeks.

 

Learning how to learn is crucial. Five years ago I was horrified at the thought of learning 60 characters in a fortnight. Now that I know how to learn characters it's quite an easy goal.

 

Melanie1989, you would find it helpful to focus on learning related characters. It's one thing to learn and retain five random characters in just an hour of study, but it's quite another to learn this five in half the time: 青, 请, 清, 情, 晴. All those characters contain 青, so by building on that one block you can retain them all very quickly.

[Melanie1989]

Yeah, i do feel very disappointed in myself that i only know so many characters. But i just don't know HOW to memorise them. Plus, i made the big mistake of thinking "well, i won't learn them yet, i'll learn to talk first''  Can anyone recommend an effective way of learning them please? I will definitely make it a habit of learning related characters, but how? Is it worth, in your opinion, to learn the Chinese way, by writing drawing them over and over again? There seems to be mixed feelings on this technique.

 

 A language exchange partner that's nearby seems like a long shot, but i guess there's nothing stopping me from putting an ad in the paper or something. Thanks again guys, you have been very helpful. And it's good to know i'm not the only one having this trouble.

 

I know what i areas i need to improve on, i just don't know how to do it. This whole experience is so much fun but it's making me feel really stupid!

[mouse]

It might be worth giving an outline of your usual study routine, then people can suggest ways to improve it or things you might be missing.

[AdamD]

Can anyone recommend an effective way of learning them please?

 

My post in this thread went into detail and provided links to books.