Asking for permission to marry

[neverending]

So, I'd like to pop the question to my Chinese girlfriend, and I have a ring, but I have a few practical questions regarding whether/how to talk to her parents about it.

 

I've been dating her in the UK for close to 4 years now during our postgraduate studies, and have not yet had a chance to visit her hometown (close to Xi'an) or meet her father. This is mostly because her father doesn't want me to visit their hometown until we're married or have a wedding arranged, so she's not viewed as promiscuous for dating a westerner. 

 

I know that her parents are generally ok with me (they've commanded her to stop dating multiple previous boyfriends, but have viewed me generally favourably not having met me), and seem to expect the relationship to progress to marriage soon, as they've already discussed with my girlfriend how the wedding would be planned. They don't seem to have a problem with having half-western grandchildren either. However, they're both skeptical about whether our relationship will continue after we've completed our studies and found jobs, because from their perspective it's uncertain whether my girlfriend and I will find jobs in the same place. Her parents are fairly traditional, but understand that because I'm western (and a very poor final year PhD student!), certain traditions (such as bride price) probably wouldn't be fair.

 

I understand from my girlfriend that an engagement doesn't carry the same weight in China as it does in the UK - diamond rings aren't given until the wedding there, and a promise to marry has basically no social status. (I don't think Chinese people have the concept of fiance/fiancee?) However, her father wants me to follow my own culture's traditions when I marry her to show that I take her seriously, so I assume he would appreciate a western style engagement.

 

Also, my Chinese is too poor currently to communicate effectively with her parents without extensive preparation, spoken or written (no time for anything but work and job hunting in the last 6 months of a PhD!)

 

So, finally, my questions:

 

Should I ask for permission to marry before proposing, as they already seem to be ok with me marrying her?

If I need to ask for permission, can I wait until after the proposal? The order matters in the west, but does it matter in China?

If I should ask, would it be rude to send them an email? Should I call them and stumble over broken Chinese? They speak no English.

If I should ask, what should I say? I don't have much of an idea!

 

Thank you for your help!

[陳德聰]

For what it's worth, I think you should be discussing these things with your girlfriend instead of us. Or rather, I think you should propose to her, to find out if she even wants to marry you, before you bother dealing with what seems like a relatively complicated family issue. Once you've confirmed that she in fact is willing to marry you, then you can easily ask her how she thinks you should break it to her parents. You can even pretend together that you haven't asked her yet, and then "ask" for permission in the way your girlfriend (at this point she'd be your fiance already though, I guess) thinks her father could accept.

 

It sounds like you've already discussed the issue relatively in-depth to know that her father thinks this and thinks that and whatnot, and presumably this discussion hasn't been directly with the father otherwise you'd just ask him. So something tells me your girlfriend is a wealth of information on how to deal with her parents, as she should be.

 

My bottom line is that you should ask permission from the person you're actually going to marry before you do any other permission asking. She is her own human being and doesn't belong to her parents, regardless of what they may think on that subject. The order does not necessarily matter in the "West", as here it is just a formality to do whenever you feel like it. You could easily do it after the proposal, because if the parents object, are you really going to call off the wedding anyway?

[JustinJJ]

 

 

I understand from my girlfriend that an engagement doesn't carry the same weight in China as it does in the UK - diamond rings aren't given until the wedding there, and a promise to marry has basically no social status. 

 

Maybe it's because in China when two people decide to marry (or if a parent finds someone with good 条件 for their daughter) they pretty much go straight to a registry office and get married. They then in the future have a celebration, but unlike in the West they are already married at this point. So perhaps they think that engagement means you can just back out. Maybe in the eyes of Chinese parents the only way you can prove your serious is to go into a department and get a 结婚证.

[neverending]

@陳德聰

 

Thanks for your in-depth input.

 

To clarify your position, you think I should propose first, and ask for permission later. Thank you - it's good and helpful to know what would be acceptable in Chinese society. Plus, in this way, I can agree with her the exact way to discuss it with her father.

 

However, I don't appreciate the condescending tone of this advice. There's a good reason I haven't spoken to my girlfriend about this already - to do so would ruin the surprise of the proposal. Also, why assume that I don't know if she'll say yes? I'm near 100% certain she will. You say she's her own human being, which she is - however, she also describes herself as very xiaoshun, so if her parents were suddenly to change their minds and say "you can't marry this man" I don't know if she'd still be willing to get married, so it's important to get their agreement.

 

Finally, to be pedantic, the order does matter a bit here in Britain (presuming you ask for permission at all) because asking for permission after proposing is like "asking for forgiveness rather than for permission". It's just not polite to the father-in-law. Of course, many men here forgo the whole asking for permission thing entirely nowadays, but if someone does it, they should do it the right way!

 

@JustinJJ:

 

Thanks, that makes sense. Unfortunately as I understand it, her dad won't think I'm taking his daughter seriously unless I follow western marriage tradition properly - having a full white wedding and everything when we get married (though thankfully that's something I wanted anyway.)

[Lu]

Seriously. You are a well-educated European man, but you feel you need the permission of your girlfriend's father before you can ask the woman herself? I'd almost ask what century you are living in.

On a more practical note, you need to talk to your girlfriend, not to her father and not to the internet. Intercultural relationships are hard enough without throwing etiquette from two centuries ago into the mix. Talk about this, and about everything else that will come up.

The whole thing - from the engagement to the colour of the dress to who pays for it all - and the rest of your lives - is up to the two of you. There is no need to hold to anyone's cultural traditions unless the two of you decide, for any reason, that you want to.

And just for information: China does have the concept of two people who are going to get married but haven't done so yet (未婚妻/未婚夫/订婚). It probably has different connotations than it does in other countries, because that's how it goes with different cultures. But you two need to fill the concept in as you two like it, whether that entails a big rock and an official announcement or just agreeing on some evening that yeah, we'll get married, and then continue watching the movie on tv.

[neverending]

 

 

Seriously. You are a well-educated European man, but you feel you need the permission of your girlfriend's father before you can ask the woman herself? I'd almost ask what century you are living in.

 

Reading comments like these are really frustrating. I'm not an expert on Chinese society - especially matters like these, which is why I'm coming here and asking questions about it. Just applying my own standards of behaviour to my interactions with Chinese people - without any consideration of what they might expect - seems culturally insensitive and likely to piss people off unintentionally.

 

If I was dating a European girl whose culture was similar to mine, I wouldn't care at all about this. But I'm not dating a European girl - I'm dating a Chinese girl, whose parents I've never met, and whose expectations on this may actually make a significant difference to these matters. I'm trying to get a feel for Chinese sensitivities on this matter, because in-laws matter more in Chinese society than in Britain. *I* don't care what they think, but my girlfriend certainly does.

 

So please stop with the condescending attitudes.

[陳德聰]

For the record, my white half is British. The condescending tone wasn't intended, but I am biased against the entire concept of asking permission from anyone but the bride-to-be.

 

I am not un-"xiao", I just think you're being a wee bit silly is all. If you really cared about her parents' decision, you wouldn't be asking if you can get away without asking them! Yes it is important what they think of you, but you already said they are willing to let you do things according to your culture rather than theirs.

 

Also, in response to what you said about asking for forgiveness... Are you crazy? You wouldn't tell them that you've already gotten engaged, that's the whole point!

[imron]

There is no need to hold to anyone's cultural traditions unless the two of you decide, for any reason, that you want to.

It seems to me that he has decided these are cultural traditions that he *does* want to hold to.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I think you should be discussing these things with your girlfriend instead of us.

In 99% of situations this is generally good advice, but like neverending mentioned, it would basically ruin any surprise.

 

 

 

but I am biased against the entire concept of asking permission from anyone but the bride-to-be.

Don't think of it as asking for permission then, but asking for their blessings.  Asking the bride-to-be is still the most important thing, it's not like he's going to be able to marry her if she says no after her parents have already agreed.  It's a preliminary courtesy for the actual asking, and believe it or not, some brides-to-be appreciate it when their groom-to-be does this, despite the fact that we all live in the 21st century.

 

Back to the topic at hand, @neverending do you have a way to contact your girlfriend's parents independently of her?

[neverending]

@陳德聰

 

The point is that I don't really care about her parents' opinion on this - just the effect that the opinion has on my relationship. I don't know them, after all. If my parents told me not to get married I'd tell them to mind their own business and happily do it anyway, but my girlfriend isn't like that. So I have a utilitarian point of view on this issue with her parents - all I want is for them to like me enough not to try and stop me getting married to her at the last moment. I'm trying to minimise the risk of problems, because I'm a cautious person by nature. I really don't know why that's silly. After all, her dad has a history of shutting down her previous boyfriends.

 

@imron

 

Thanks for being - from my point of view - more reasoned in your judgement. I do already discuss 99% of matters involving Chinese society with her, but this one I'm trying to solve independently for the reason you stated.

 

I have her parents' emails and their phone numbers, incidentally, despite never having been in touch with them directly (forwarded emails, and my girlfriend has used my phone for calls before.) I could probably also get their QQs without arousing suspicion or snooping.

[renzhe]

My Chinese girlfriend of 13 years thinks that you should propose to the girl and then figure out a way to break it to the parents together. She thinks that any other course of action would be strange.

We know about 6 couples who married over here in Europe, and they all did it this way.

Personally, I think that you should memorise some token phrases in Chinese (preferably in their local dialect if it's not Mandarin) for when you meet them, and if you want to appear respectful, you should definitely get some expensive-looking (!) gifts for the extended family when you do visit. This will nicely illustrate that you respect their culture, and that you understand a bit about it too (the gifts for others to see, primarily).

[imron]

Do you ever speak to her parents independently of your girlfriend?

 

Perhaps under the auspices of practicing your Chinese you could start video chatting to them say once a week or something (if your girlfriend says she's happy to help, say you're already used to her accent and you want some practice with a few different accents).  This not only allows you to establish an excuse to contact them independently, but will also let you know if your Chinese is good enough to speak to them by yourself.  Then just wait until your girlfriend is not around and ask.

[neverending]

@renzhe:

 

This is very useful, thanks. Your girlfriend and your married friends seem to agree with the general sentiment here, so I'm leaning towards not talking to them in advance, and instead dealing with this after the proposal - which will be far easier with my fiancee on my side! I imagine she'll be happy to help me pick out a suitable present when I finally meet them.

 

@imron:

 

This is a good plan, thanks.  They speak almost totally standard mandarin (only some minor differences in tones, apparently), so hopefully communicating won't be too much of an issue when I try. However, the general feeling I get from here is that asking the parents first is definitely not required (and perhaps even strange!), so I may not use this tactic. I'll wait a few days to think things over and see what other opinions appear.

 

 

 

One thing worth noting is that she comes from a smallish city in the west which is still more traditional in behaviour than the east coast of China - when my girlfriend first came to the UK, it took her a while to get used to her more liberal compatriots already living here. I imagine her parents are much the same.

[imron]

However, the general feeling I get from here is that asking the parents first is definitely not required (and perhaps even strange!)

No, it's not required, but if it's an important tradition for you, then I don't think they would object.  Just explain beforehand that it's a tradition, and is seen as a courtesy, which is why you are doing it. 

 

From a modern, mainland Chinese perspective it is perfectly ok not to do it, but remember your relationship is a cross-cultural one and sometimes incorporating different cultural aspects from each side can be fun and meaningful, rather than just ignoring everything that is different.

 

You will likely find it interesting (hah and also possibly frustrating) when your wife and her family incorporate Chinese customs for your wedding, and likewise they will find it interesting when you incorporate British ones.

 

As Lu mentioned earlier, it's your wedding, and it's up to you to decide what you want to do.  As long as it doesn't offend the other side, then personally I think that incorporating aspects from each other's culture will make it more meaningful.

[imron]

My Chinese girlfriend of 13 years thinks that you should propose to the girl and then figure out a way to break it to the parents together.

I wonder if that was a subtle hint

[renzhe]

We're beyond subtle hints. The only types of hints known to work on me would violate the Geneva Convention and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

[MeiMay]

I find your whole attitude strange. They told you to do things according to your culture, which you are, down to the strange "surprise" thing, a markedly western idea. Why would someone want to be surprised by someone else asking to marry them? That would be like a stranger coming to you in the street saying "wanna marry me?" Surprising, yes, but to what end? You are already dating so isn't it obvious? But your Western culture says it should be a surprise, so a surprise you insist on. Fine. Then you insist on following an old British custom which you admitted is from Britain from the "olden days", so again you are adamantly pushing your own culture onto your girlfriend's Chinese parents from a predominantly Muslim region but you seem to act like that's somehow being sensitive to your girlfriend's (and her parents') culture. Yet you say you don't really care a damn thing about your girlfriend's family and are only playing along because they matter to your girlfriend.

I'm hard pressed to find any sensitivity in anything you said.

[MeiMay]

in addition to my previous post (unless it got censored as half the posts here seem to for no reason): as everyone else pointed out it depends on the wishes of the parents. In China people are different too, some are more conservative, some more modern, some are Muslim, most are Confucian, some are Daoist, some are Buddhist, some are Christian, and different parents have different expectations. You should really ask your girlfriend and work together with her and forget about the pipe dream of following your own culture's traditions to the T while somehow remaining sensitive to her culture. Different things are important to different people and you can't just make assumptions.

[imron]

unless it got censored as half the posts here seem to for no reason

Actually, they're not censored.   As a new user, your posts go in a moderation queue and so there might be a delay before they appear (there is a note telling you this for every moderated message).  There's a very good reason for this, namely that it cuts down on spam.

 

I'm hard pressed to find any sensitivity in anything you said.

You might try a little sensitivity yourself.  Your remarks come off as incredibly condescending.  Anyway, just because you don't understand his reasons, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.  It's perfectly reasonable for both sides in a cross-cultural relationship to want to incorporate customs and traditions from each culture in their relationship.  This is one such thing.

 

Why would someone want to be surprised by someone else asking to marry them?

Because when it's done by someone you love, it's romantic, and nice, and gives both of them a nice warm, fuzzy feeling.  You might not care about such things, but some people do, and it causes no harm so why not be happy for them.

[陳德聰]

I think that what MeiMay expresses is a little bit of the befuddlement at the entire situation that I had when I read it. I went off on a bit of a rant and put it in spoiler tags since I think it's really not adding much but reiterating what was said above in a sort of "here's the train of thought for when approaching this question".

If your in-laws have said you can do it your way, then why would you then choose something that is not your way (OP doesn't care about the outdated Western tradition)? Even if the "Western" tradition has precedence in China as well, in-laws have already said it's okay to not do it their way.

So then that leaves figuring out how to deal with in-laws the best way, where the daughter will be the best judge. But you can't tell her because it will ruin the surprise? But if you just propose to her, then there is no more surprise to ruin when you ask her how to get her parents' blessing... Because you've already proposed to her. If she wants to marry you, then she probably wants to also find a way to make her parents accept you. The parents have no way of knowing that you've proposed without her telling them.

I don't think she would jeopardize your chances of getting married by telling her parents before you've figured it all out (that is, assuming they actually would get upset that you didn't ask their permission).

I think it comes down to less of a "Chinese culture" question and more of a communication question.

[gato]

Let's simplify this.

Today there is no tradition in China of getting your girlfriend'a parents' permission first before proposing to your girlfriend.

A hundred years ago, when most marriages were arranged by parents, yes, your dad would have had to make a deal with her dad first.