Asking for permission to marry

[roddy]

I think it would be kind of odd to speak to the parents before the girlfriend, especially as you don't know them well and the possibilities for misunderstandings abound. They also sound relatively open to the idea that you might do things your way. 

 

I think you should propose to her, in your own time, and without reference to the parents. Then when you're talking to her about telling her parents (assuming she says yes) say you'd like to ask for her parents approval / blessing / permission, whatever you want to call it. I wouldn't frame it as "I want to marry your daughter, can I?" so much as "Your daughter and I very much want to get married, but it's also very important to us that you support this."

 

Then there'll be a simple seven-day interrogation into you, your family, your finances, your families finances, welfare entitlement, plans for children, children's education (primary, secondary, tertiary), house purchasing plans, interior design concepts, furniture choices, your health, health of immediate family members, that kind of thing. Then they'll likely say yes.

 

Edit: Just noticed you actually posted some simple and direct questions

 

Should I ask for permission to marry before proposing, as they already seem to be ok with me marrying her? - no

If I need to ask for permission, can I wait until after the proposal? see above

If I should ask, would it be rude to send them an email? Should I call them and stumble over broken Chinese? They speak no English. Ha, so your daughter gets a call asking why her boyfriend's phoning up babbling something about marriage? Or dinner? They couldn't tell. What's going on? Baaaaaaaaaad plan. 

If I should ask, what should I say? Exactly what your then-fiancee has told you to say. 

[Lu]

In 99% of situations this is generally good advice, but like neverending mentioned, it would basically ruin any surprise.

I still finds this hopelessly old-fashioned, but I do understand you want to surprise her and this would ruin it. Already a lot of good advice in this thread on that. I would like to point out - though perhaps not applicable here - that not every woman wants this question suddenly sprung on her. If the two of you have brought it up already and she has indicated she'd be up for marrying you, you will likely be fine, but in general one wants to be careful springing such major questions on someone with the expectation that they answer promptly. I mean, you (general you) usually wouldn't suddenly ask 'Want to emigrate to China?' and expect the other person to say Yes right away. Marriage is even more important than that.

Just my 2 cents.

[neverending]

@陳德聰

 

You have some queries in your "rant" for which I do have reasonable responses. However, as your approach to this thread has basically been "you're stupid and your question is stupid", I'd rather ignore them and ask kindly that you don't reply again. There have been plenty of helpful replies that haven't condescended to me. I wonder why you feel the need to respond so harshly to a genuine culture question on a forum about culture.

 

@MeiMay

 

See above for why I'm ignoring most of what you've written too.

 

One quote of yours is relevant though: "you can't just make assumptions." That's precisely why I'm asking for advice.

 

 

@gato

 

Thanks! Good to know.

 

@roddy

 

Thanks, that's pretty much in line with what others are saying. This seems like the best way forward, for sure.

 

@Lu

 

I'm pretty sure she'll be over the moon when I surprise her. Despite what some here think, I'm actually not a total idiot, and I know my girlfriend really well - it's just her parents and more generally the culture of 50-something year old mainlanders I have no clue about, having basically zero exposure to them.

[陳德聰]

Your words, not mine.

[abcdefg]

Despite what some here think, I'm actually not a total idiot,

 

Lighten up a little @neverending. I think people are genuinely trying to help. If you are too prickly you will scare us all off.

 

I've followed this thread with interest, but since i have no experience in your situation, I've not posted any advice.

[Guest realmayo]

I think the condescending replies are from people who are ignorant of the convention of asking-the-father-first as currently practised by plenty of people in the UK and perhaps other Anglo countries which is that it's an optional courtesy which he's not going to refuse and if it does come before a formal proposal, that proposal itself usually isn't going to come as a suprise to the bride-to-be (although the precise timing of it might).

 

Clearly the convention in China has never been the same as what it is/was in the UK.

 

The father won't be offended that you didn't ask him first.

 

Perhaps, once (fingers-crossed   ) your girlfriend accepts, suggest that she later tells her father that you wanted to talk to him first because this is a courtesy-thing some more traditionally-minded people do in the UK, but you couldn't because of the communication barriers. That way you still get some of the benefits -- coming across as an earnest traditional young man who takes her family seriously and wants to do the right thing by them. And of course she'll be able to tell you if actually he wouldn't think those things and there's no point ever bringing it up at all.

[neverending]

@abcdefg

 

Apologies if I'm coming across poorly. With that said, I am trying to direct thanks to those who I have found genuinely helpful.

 

The posters I've been "prickly" to are those that are either ridiculing that I would even ask such as backward question (should I intrinsically know every aspect of Chinese society without asking?) or are condescending to me (they're not addressing my simple questions but are instead giving me cookie cutter relationship advice that I should be communicating more with my girlfriend about it before proposing.)

 

Anyway, you're probably right that I should lighten up a bit - I'll just stop responding to the more negative comments. No matter who wins an Internet argument, everyone loses. 

 

@realmayo

 

Smart idea - makes sense to tell him that afterwards. Thank you! And yes, as you said, the women I know often feel the proposal is coming but not exactly when (so it's a surprise but not a shock), and some (not all) of my friends here have asked for permission from their girlfriends' parents as a courtesy.

[roddy]

I actually know indirectly of one UK man who asked his girlfriend's parents for permission to propose. They said yes, of course, we'd be delighted. He then bottled it and didn't manage to actually propose for over a year. Christ knows what they made of that, I think I'd have rescinded my permission after a couple of months...

[gato]

Was the girlfriend Chinese?

To the OP: Do you have any plan to meet your girlfriend's parents any time soon? I actually think it's a bigger deal that you have never met your girlfriend's parents in person before you two decide to get married. Traditional parents probably wouldn't agree to that.

[roddy]

Let's pretend she was so I don't have to tell myself off for making an irrelevant post...

[JustinJJ]

Why don't you just focus on the proposal then get her to navigate all the cultural differences, that way there is less chance of making a mistake.

She's the expert at Chinese culture (i.e. 'native level') so probably best to leave that part to her, otherwise you might risk bungling it. If you find it hard to communicate with them in Chinese at this stage, probably won't come off smooth, so best to let her do the talking  

[MeiMay]

gato: yes, your dad, not you.

陳德聰 is right I think, it's mostly a communication issue. The OP doesn't feel like he can talk to the parents without asking for advice from people in here and he feels like he can't talk to his girlfriend because of the surprise aspect, so that leaves... no one but strangers to talk to? Customs aside, that's a poor situation communication-wise.

I'm sorry if I came off as rude, that wasn't my intention but I honestly felt like the question was a little... odd, given all the elements, and I personally find the aspect of "I don't give a damn about the family of the girl I'm about to marry" at least as offensive as the OP seemed to find my post.

[MeiMay]

JustinJJ also gave good adivice.

[Guest realmayo]

the aspect of "I don't give a damn about the family of the girl I'm about to marry"

 

where did you come across this attitude?

[MeiMay]

realmayo: here " I'm trying to get a feel for Chinese sensitivities on this matter, because in-laws matter more in Chinese society than in Britain. *I* don't care what they think, but my girlfriend certainly does."

and HERE

"The point is that I don't really care about her parents' opinion on this - just the effect that the opinion has on my relationship. I don't know them, after all. If my parents told me not to get married I'd tell them to mind their own business and happily do it anyway, but my girlfriend isn't like that. So I have a utilitarian point of view on this issue with her parents - all I want is for them to like me enough not to try and stop me getting married to her at the last moment. "

That's a cold and inconsiderate attitude which I personally find offensive. But that's just me. I very much think you should "marry the family" and I don't think marriage should be an act of separating a child from his/her family. If a marriage destroys rather than creates relationships then one should ask if the marriage is right. I'm not saying all parents are good parents and parents are always right but I'd say parents are right a lot more often and children are prone to making foolish choices a lot more often. Family is the most important thing and the idea of "replacing parents with family of my own" is not something I see as a good idea, unless the parents are insane/evil.

[Guest realmayo]

Ok, I read those comments differently, in context, answering some misunderstanding,

he was pointing out that when someone does the whole ask-the-father routine, it's not because he and the father are best friends and he values the old guy's opinion more than anyone else's. The guy isn't going to think, 'gosh her father wasn't over-supportive, I think I'd better break up with his daughter so she can find someone he prefers'.

I think the majority of people would marry someone even if they didn't know and love that someone's parents. But obviously, not you, not everyone.

[MeiMay]

Then, it is just an empty ritual with no real meaning? I hope this isn't offensive, I'm just trying to understand.

[neverending]

Thanks JustinJJ, that's now the plan.

Realmayo is on the nose with his assessment. I didn't mean to phrase it quite so coldly, but her parents are essentially strangers, so it's hard for me to value their opinions at a personal level. If my girlfriend was willing to ignore their opinion, I'd simply take it as a sign that I could too as she wouldn't be very family oriented. However, as she does care what they think, i want to do my best to win them over.

It's not an empty ritual - it's a type of politeness. Here in Britain, it's implicitly understood nowadays that even if the father says no the marriage will often happen anyway, but it does show respect to the girl's family that you chose to involve them in the discussion at all.

Anyway, with that, I'm abandoning (unfollowing) the thread, as I've had my question answered sufficiently and finding having to justify myself constantly quite distracting from my studies. Thanks again to all helpful posters!

[imron]

Best of luck with your proposal, and hope everything works out!

[Demonic_Duck]

It's not an empty ritual - it's a type of politeness. Here in Britain, it's implicitly understood nowadays that even if the father says no the marriage will often happen anyway, but it does show respect to the girl's family that you chose to involve them in the discussion at all.

 

I think this depends on how you're approaching this. "Asking for the parents' blessing" doesn't sound objectionable at all, whilst "asking for the father's permission" sounds frankly horrific.

 

Either way, you'd be asking for their blessing to get married, not to get engaged, so I don't see how there would be any aspect of "asking for forgiveness" if you'd already proposed beforehand. As your girlfriend is her own self-determining agent, it makes sense to ask her first - clearly she's the most important person in this equation, and ultimately the decision is hers, no matter how 孝 she is.

 

All that said...

 

 

That's a cold and inconsiderate attitude which I personally find offensive. But that's just me. I very much think you should "marry the family" and I don't think marriage should be an act of separating a child from his/her family. If a marriage destroys rather than creates relationships then one should ask if the marriage is right. I'm not saying all parents are good parents and parents are always right but I'd say parents are right a lot more often and children are prone to making foolish choices a lot more often. Family is the most important thing and the idea of "replacing parents with family of my own" is not something I see as a good idea, unless the parents are insane/evil.

 

I mostly agree with this. As much as the final decision rests with you and her, clearly you should care about what her parents think.