An Arranged Marriage

[imron]

Really? Is this the way people here roll?

What I'm saying is that all we have is a one-sided (and therefore biased) view of what happened from the point of view of the person feeling slighted by the situation.  We don't know what things have been accidentally or purposely omitted, but even assuming the OP is being entirely objective about his breakup, there is still the chance that cultural differences and seeing things only through the lens of your own culture (on both sides) have led to misunderstandings.

 

One immediate thing that strikes me about this situation is the Chinese habit of rarely saying no directly.  Instead they'll give non-committal or vague responses and the other person is supposed to take the hint.  That works if both parties are Chinese, but is a recipe for disaster when foreigners are involved because the foreigner still thinks they have a chance when actually in the mind of the Chinese person they have clearly signaled there is no chance.  I've seen this happen over and over again (not just in relationships but in other aspects of life too), and it always ends poorly with both sides unhappy with the other.

 

From the OPs story, it seems like the girl had already made up her mind and was giving clear signals that the relationship was over.  Based on what I mentioned above, saying things like "it's my parents, blah blah blah" could well just be a way for her to give face to the OP and not need to reject him directly, thus sparing feelings.

 

Even if that wasn't the case, after arriving in China he went from being invited to the wedding to having the police called on him, so something has obviously gone wrong somewhere.

 

Despite all of that, even if the girl was just using him for fun and travel and then dumping him once a 'house and car' came along, I still wouldn't call her a whore.  Just like I wouldn't call a Chinese person who cheated me a chink or some other derogatory phrase, because it's a nasty word and there are other ways to express your dissatisfaction than cursing out the person who caused you pain. 

 

 

 

You think you have a better understanding of Chinese culture?

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on Chinese culture, but I think that yes I do have a better understanding of Chinese culture compared to someone that hasn't lived long-term in China and that can't speak the language.  I've also already left my thoughts in that other thread.

[renzhe]

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread hates the very idea of being forced into an arranged marriage.

I just don't think that being forced into one makes you a whore, or that simply refusing one is as easy as picking Coke over Pepsi.

[Angelina]

 

 

In traditional societies, families have a lot of power over children. Not legal power, with police and courts, but emotional control. You can't "switch that off" just because you don't like it. It will take centuries, just like it took centuries in Europe and elsewhere. If somebody is from an unreasonable, controlling family, it's hard to get away.

 

I said it before. I'm from a traditional society, my family owns a farm. It's not an excuse to be a weak person. It's kind a wrong to assume that all women from traditional societies have no choice but to stay on the farm and marry someone their parents approve of-  people who say this are supporting exploitation. Maybe it means you are supporting exploitation that is already there, maybe it is more about how weak people are instead of any actual oppression, but you are supporting exploitation no matter what. This can actually be used to extort money out of men. For example, telling they guy that her parents have already found a guy who has a house and thus pressuring the guy into buying one. 

 

Anyway. We are not talking about her decision to marry a house and a car, and whether or not she could have been able to talk her parents out of it. (I have heard about Chinese people who have chosen to do something their parents were not supportive of. Most would rather try to persuade their parents without any confrontations. Then there is the minority who openly say no. I remember someone who has a Chinese wife telling me about how his wife's best friend had eloped to Beijing with her boyfriend because their families did not agree. They got married and after struggling for a few years managed to make a decent life for themselves in the big city.)

 

The problem is that she hurt his feelings. She enjoyed the trip he paid for, even though she knew her parents will not agree and did not tell him about the situation. The trip was after she went back to China from NYC. She might have been blinded by all the shiny lights in NYC, but after she went back home and saw what her parents want, she agreed to have him pay for this trip. And then, oops, sorry, my parents want me to marry someone else. That's the problem. 

 

But yeah, it is her life that will suck. She will be stuck with a guy she does not love. You are saying she did not have any other choice (the only choice in your mind is to be disowned by her family), I am saying she took an advantage of him. Maybe we can blame the family for raising a weak creature, maybe we can blame the family for raising a manipulative creature. We can never know the truth because we know only one side of the story. No matter what, Daniel should forget her. He tried to help her, she refused his offer for help. 

[renzhe]

It's kind a wrong to assume that all women from traditional societies have no choice but to stay on the farm and marry someone their parents approve of

They do have a choice, but the choice is not always easy. Sometimes both choices will emotionally scar them.

Of course, I buggered off when I was 16, never went back, and I think all marriage is antiquated misogynist nonsense, so what should I know?

[Angelina]

Rant 

 

 

Edited

[michaelS]

Can I just say, hopefully without sounding too precious, I think the language in this thread is pretty nasty. Using misogynistic insults is not acceptable just because it's not in English and is giving a bit of camaraderie to the initial poster.

 

There are a lot of forums out there full of people being rude each other or third parties, I quite like the fact that this one isn't like that, call me old-fashioned or whatever.

[Angelina]

Rant 

 

 

Edited 

[Angelina]

Rant 

 

 

Edited 

[studychinese]

Renzhe, I am not blaming this lady for being pressured, or saying that she was being pressured, and marrying another guy. That has zero to do with my point.

What I am saying that whether China is a 'traditional society' or not (and really we are talking China here not bush Bantus) there was absolutely no reason for this lady to conduct herself in the manner that she did. Telling your boyfriend that you are being pressured into an undesired arranged marriage is bound to result in exactly what happened to the OP. Instead of just breaking up she created an emotional drama full of emotive subject matter ("forced marriage") all the while keeping in touch with the OP and having "FaceTime sex" with him. None of this has anything to do with "traditional society" and thus while "traditional society" can explain pressure to marry, it is a non-sequitur to say that it had anything to do with her specific actions in relation to the OP.

 

I feel that much of this thread has been spent with various posters talking right past each other.

[abcdefg]

@Studychinese makes a good point.
 

None of this has anything to do with "traditional society" and thus while "traditional society" can explain pressure to marry, it is a non-sequitur to say that it had anything to do with her specific actions in relation to the OP.

 

After re-reading @Danielfd's original post, #50 in this thread, I have to wonder about just how "traditional" Lily was after all. She speaks English well enough to work in New York City as an Au Pair, and presumably her parents allowed her to go take that distant job. After graduation she takes off with Daniel on a three-month "honeymoon" trip around China and Thailand, on his dime. She even has "FaceTime sex" with him afterwards (I had to Google to find out what that was.)

 

This doesn't sound like the "traditional" young women I have known from rural China during my years here. Maybe something was not quite right from the start. I'm sympathetic to both parties and don't feel qualified to judge who was right and who was wrong. Seldom are things entirely one-sided. 

 

She could have very easily concluded that this pleasant "play time" interlude was over, and it was time to resume her life in what she perceived to be the "real world:" namely obey her parents, marry someone sensible, settle down, raise a family, etc.

[geraldc]

Getting back with your ex, as your parents think it's a good idea, isn't an arranged marriage. 

[Angelina]

 

Ok ok it's not funny 

 

 

Edited 

[renzhe]

She could have very easily concluded that this "play time" interlude was over, and it was time to resume her life in what she perceived to be the "real world:" namely obey her parents, marry someone sensible, settle down, raise a family, etc.

Without knowing all the details, I think that this is most likely what happened.

@studychinese, it seems like I was concentrating more on the fact that she entered an arranged marriage, and you were more concerned about how she handled the breakup. I have no interest in defending the latter, though not being direct also has a cultural component.

[Angelina]

It's really sad when people don't believe that their dream world can become their real world. Miracles happen. 

[abcdefg]

It's really sad when people don't believe that their dream world can become their real world. Miracles happen.

 

Yes, Angelina, I agree and had those same sentiments myself a few short weeks ago (in a different thread.) But my eyes became opened, reality-based considerations supervened, and I had to lay those dreams aside. The people involved, myself and the lady, both had to part in a civilized manner and move on with our lives.

[imron]

@Angelina, rather than making posts and then going back and edit-deleting them later, perhaps spend a bit more time thinking about them before you make them.

[Angelina]

Ok

[ZhiMu]

This is a rather intense thread (mostly towards the later posts)... reading thought the now 5 pages I have found a lot of narrow minded and borderline immature responses (from those not involved in the stories) to this real-life reality, not to mention more edits than I think I have ever seen in any thread.  I  myself am an American gay man married to a Chinese national now living here in Los Angeles with me.  He has taught me and has opened my mind so much to Chinese culture both directly and through interaction with his family and friends.  I have learned that traditional in China does not equal traditional in the West when it applies to matters of family.  It is still impossible for me to fully embrace but I have learned to accept that in China love does not conquer all... it may be harsh to say but money does for many.  My husband is a free spirit from a affluent traditional Chinese family.  He personally was able to move outside the requirements, the hopes, the dreams his family had for him concerning marriage but not all are able to do this.  His family has not disowned him and I have now become comfortable with the term room-mate, something that allows his family to "save face" in social circles. I love his family even if they never openly accept all facts despite being told many times.

 

We have 3 different friends all in similar situations to the two stories shared here.  All come from affluent traditional Chinese families... One is a gay man, another a straight woman and the other a lesbian woman.  Due to family pressure all three have now entered marriages decided by their parents.  I find myself needing to respect their decision to follow family wishes.  If I judge this through my independent American glasses... I would feel out raged, pissed off and ready to scream my lungs out at them.  However, this is their decision.  They have chosen to sacrifice personal happiness for family pride and family wealth.  This is not wrong in Chinese culture no matter how hard it is for us in the West of us to accept.  All I can do is continue to be a good friend and provide support whenever possible.  They are still my friends!!!!

 

We have another friend a lesbian Chinese woman from a very very very affluent traditional family.  Just recently she told her parents that she was gay and not going to marry the man of their dreams.  Her father has now disowned her, her mother tries to accept but behind the fathers back.  She has been cut off from all family funds and is living fully on her own means which is much less.  I'm proud of her, something inside me want to cheer on and say great decision live your dream.  But honestly to me her decision is no more better or worse than my 3 other friends.  I will support her in her decision as her friend.

 

I think with anything in life it is always easier to understand something when someone that you care is connected... even easier if you experience it yourself.  Things in China are different and sometimes still a bit crazy to me.  Love is not expressed as it is where I was raised, no is not said but rather implied, rejection is a sign of acceptance, talking around the topic is more appropriate than being direct, maintaining the pride of your fellow man is required, financial stability equals a loving home environment... and this list just keeps going.

 

@abcdefg... your last post says it all.  no matter where you fall in love in this ever shrinking world when love fails, for whatever reason you have to move on.  You are obliviously a mature man that understands Chinese culture very well.

 

<Admin edit: link removed.  Note: First time posters promoting links are generally treated with suspicion.  Stick around for a bit, make a few more posts and then linking to things won't be so strongly moderated (also note that we expect full disclosure if you promote something you are connected with).

[edelweis]

Ideas need to be confronted to the world, in order to evolve from the reality and the feedback from other people. That's how people mature.

I don' t have the patience, knowledge or (in some or most cases?) maturity to give this feedback myself. I tend to just put people on my ignore list. But not answering doesn't make people's opinions evolve.

That's why I'm grateful to Imron and others who have the patience and skill to give constructive feedback. If that leads to edits, well that's globally a good thing (even if it can be annoying to readers who come later).

@zhimu: interesting story. Thanks.

[ZhiMu]

@edelweis... Thanks!  Just to quickly clarify... I'm all for admin edits!!! I'm not for people continually posting thoughts and them editing/deleting it themselves.  It show lack of prior thought and foundation in my opinion.  I have read all of imron's posts and edits and must say that the conversation was managed by a top quality admin.

 

Cheers!