差别 vs 差异 vs 区别

[lakers4sho]

What's the difference between these three? They can all be roughly translated to English as "difference". Example sentences would be nice as well.

 

 

lakers4sho

[Vivi MENG]

差别： general differences, Can be any kind of differences. e.g. 这件裙子和那件裙子有什么差别？

差异： key differences of two big concepts. e.g 中国和英国的文化差异

区别： the difference that clearly classified two things. Some unique features that distinguish one from another.

This is my explanation, please bear with my poor English. Hope it will help you. 

[Nathan Mao]

These are intended to supplement Vivi's explanation, not contradict. I think those are correct, but would like to add a little more nuance.

 

差别: I have the impression that there is a comparison involved, and one of the items doesn't measure up to the other in some manner. So in Vivi's example, there is an implication that one dress is better than the other (due to price, or color, or craftsmanship, etc)

差异:  seems more formal.  I have rarely used it.

区别： difference, when there are no values involved, no implication of one being better.

[陳德聰]

I don't really agree with Nathan Mao in #3, specifically about values.

 

差别 chābié <- this is the most general and most basic way to express 不同. I don't feel it has the 差 chà connotation at all. Think of 逆差 and 顺差. When it is first tone, this character simply means difference.

 

差异 chāyì <- this is, like Vivi MENG points out, a difference of "more important" things. It is more commonly part of set phrases and compounds like 文化差异, 个别差异 and 差异化. It has a more officious flavour, and using it can emphasize that the difference between two things is more than just superficial.

区别 qūbié <- this is a bit more complicated. It means 区分&辨别 as a verb, and is on the same level as 差别 as a noun. But the 区分 aspect contributes to exactly what Vivi MENG said, where there are categorical differences between the two (or more) things. It generally makes me think of a venn diagram, where all of the non-overlapping 区域 constitute the 区别 between the relevant things.

[tooironic]

I agree with Vivi and 陈德聪. I don't see how 差别 has anything to do with superiority of one thing over another.

 

In 现代汉语规范词典, 差别 is simply defined as 事物之间的不同之处 - the differences between two things. The example sentence they give is 这对孪生姐妹的相貌还是有细微差别的 - these twin sisters look a bit different to each other (literally, "There are some subtle differences between the appearances of this pair of twin sisters"). Again, there is no implication of value judgement here. 

 

差异 is most commonly used with 文化 as 文化差异 (cultural difference). 

 

区别 can be a verb (to distinguish) and a noun (difference). When it is used as a noun it has basically the same meaning as 差别.

 

When in doubt you can use 差别 as it is the most common and flexible word for difference in Chinese.

[Nathan Mao]

Hm.  In that sentence I would have said, 这对孪生姐妹的相貌还是有细微不同的

 

Perhaps I am focusing too much on the 差 part of 差别, like I would a root word in Western languages.

GoogleTranslate (I know, not always the best authority) has one of the meanings of 差别 as "disparity". That's probably related to my impression of there being some sort of value comparison.

I should add, when I say "value", I just mean that there is possibly an objective scale and a measurable or observable difference. There is no true value difference in a large town or a small town, both have their good/bad points, but I would use 差别 if I were talking about population differences.  Or if I were talking about height, or cost, etc... the "value" merely being the number value, not necessarily moral, social, or personal values.

China Tools also has "disparity" as one of the meanings of 差别。So Google Translate isn't a spurious example, either.

 

But in any case, my apologies if my attempt to add nuance to Vivi Meng's excellent explanations led anyone astray or confused anyone.

[陳德聰]

I think the best way to ascertain nuance in a language is to use the language itself, rather than google translate.

Yes, 差别 can mean disparity, when the difference between the two things is a disparity. But when the two things are just different, and there is no disparity, it doesn't conjure up a disparity meaning.

[Nathan Mao]

Right, 差别 often has a connotation of disparity that matches with the main meaning of 差, and which someone trying to learn the difference between 差别 vs 差异 vs 区别 should be aware of to understand and use the language more accurately.

 

As I said from the beginning: "These are intended to supplement Vivi's explanation, not contradict. I think those are correct, but would like to add a little more nuance."

[陳德聰]

I'm not sure you understood what I meant, if you think that I was saying it "often has a connotation of disparity". In fact, I was saying it only has this "connotation" when the reality of the situation you are describing is actually a disparity. The majority of the time, it simply means "difference".

 

You can't just add nuance where it doesn't actually exist according to your fancy.

[Nathan Mao]

I guess I don't understand how you can go from:

I don't feel it has the 差 chà connotation at all.

 

to

 

差别 can mean disparity and  I was saying it only has this "connotation"

 

 

without acknowledging that from the very beginning, I said clearly I was not trying to substitute or contradict Vivi MENG's definition, I was trying to add nuance, i.e., "a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound."  Which is extremely similar to connotation: "an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning."

 

It is important to note:

 

1) You can't look up the word 差别 without getting "disparity" as one of the definitions

2) the very words you try to use as an example of of "差" being "difference" actually include disparity.  You can't have a favorable balance or unfavorable balance without there being a quantitative (value) comparison difference.  Every formal definition of 差 (with the pronunciation 'cha') that I can find includes implications of inferiority of some sort (to include "mistake").  So it makes sense it would bring that connotation to when it used in its combinations.

3) When I give my opinion, I may use whatever dictionary tool I choose at the moment to confirm that my impression is not out of left field (because anyone can be wrong), but I am speaking from my personal experience in studying the language over the years.  I may be wrong on many things regarding the Chinese language, I often am...that's why I still study, and I learn something every day.  I admit I may still be wrong on this, and I'd like to hear from some native speakers.

 

 

However, from my experience studying Chinese, if someone is trying to understand the difference between 差别   差异 and 区别 , it is helpful for them to understand there is a possibility of a comparison/disparity involved with 差别, based on the character 差 itself being a part of the word.  You've acknowledged that connotation. The examples you've given for 差 confirm that implication.

 

I don't get where you can think I'm trying to add anything "according to my fancy".

 

If anything, it seems you are trying to erase a formal, accepted definition of 差别 according to your fancy.

 

It's fine to say you haven't seen that in your experience.  It is quite another thing to insist that anyone saying there is that nuance is objectively wrong.  The facts just don't support the latter.

[Demonic_Duck]

I guess I don't understand how you can go from:

 

I don't feel it has the 差 chà connotation at all.

 

to

 

差别 can mean disparity and  I was saying it only has this "connotation"

 

I would assume that the scare quotes he used are an indication that he doesn't entirely accept your use of the term "connotation". That's what scare quotes usually denote, anyway. As such, I don't see any contradiction.

 

1) You can't look up the word 差别 without getting "disparity" as one of the definitions

 

The English word "difference" can also mean disparity:

 

"There is a large difference in terms of sex appeal between Scarlett Johansson and my uncle Fred."

 

However, this isn't to say that "difference" contains the connotation of disparity.

 

2) the very words you try to use as an example of of "差" being "difference" actually include disparity.  You can't have a favorable balance or unfavorable balance without there being a quantitative (value) comparison difference.  Every formal definition of 差 (with the pronunciation 'cha') that I can find includes implications of inferiority of some sort (to include "mistake").  So it makes sense it would bring that connotation to when it used in its combinations.

 

a) Chà is a different pronunciation than chā, just as 好 hǎo is a different pronunciation from hào (though again, with closely related meanings).

b) "It makes sense it would bring that connotation to it when used in its combinations" - just because something makes sense to you, doesn't mean it's true. This is especially the case when we're talking about language, which is far from completely logical at the best of times. Think of our old favourite "危机" - though any dictionary will give one of the meanings of "机" as "opportunity", as we all know it's fallacious to assume that the word "危机" also contains this meaning.

 

3) When I give my opinion, I may use whatever dictionary tool I choose at the moment to confirm that my impression is not out of left field (because anyone can be wrong), but I am speaking from my personal experience in studying the language over the years.  I may be wrong on many things regarding the Chinese language, I often am...that's why I still study, and I learn something every day.  I admit I may still be wrong on this, and I'd like to hear from some native speakers.

 

So would I, but I suspect they will agree with what 陈德华 is saying.

[Nathan Mao]

To the original poster,

 

Whenever I have encountered similar words and tried to understand the difference, I often tried to turn it around: either making the similar words negative (in the example of trying to understand the differences between 能  可能   会  想  要 , i.e., the subtle variations of "can" and "will", I found it helpful to consider them from 不能  不可能  不会  不想  不要), or by turning the words into questions.

 

So consider the difference in answers you'd get if you asked:

 

1) 这两辆车有什么差别？

2) 这两辆车有什么差异？

3) 这两辆车有什么区别？

 

For question one, you'd probably get the stats on the vehicles, i.e., this one has more trunk room, this one has more cabin space, this one has a more powerful engine, this one costs more, this one has slightly better gas mileage.

For question two, it would depend on what vehicles you are comparing.  If one was a hybrid and one a conventional, you'd probably get a discussion of Green Technology principles; if between a car and an SUV, you'd get descriptions of the functional differences between pure passenger transport of a sedan and the flexibility to move people or things and the option to go off-road of an SUV

For question three, it would depend, again, on what vehicles were being compared.  I think you'd get less detail and more of a description of large differences than 差别.

 

Or to look at it another way, I would use 差别 to ask a question about the differences among extremely similar things, like all sports cars or all SUVs.

I would use 差异 to ask a question about significantly different vehicles, like motorcycles vs tractor-trailers.  Note: context matters.  If in the context of your conversation the difference between a hybrid and a conventional gas sedan is salient, you could use 差异 for that, too...

I would use 区别 to discuss significant, obvious differences between vehicles, like conventional vs hybrid, or SUV vs Sedan vs Sports Car.

 

From that perspective, there's almost a strategic (差异), operational (区别) and tactical (差别) aspect to these three.  I don't think those levels are present in every topic, but it would be worth considering. But it is a good example of how the wording of the question itself indicates the scope of the answer.

 

Or to make this recursive, if I was asking about the difference between 差别, 差异, and 区别 in Chinese, I would ask 这三个词有什么区别？

not 差别 or 差异。

 

But, of course, your mileage may vary. 

 

I'd love to have a native speaker weigh in on this part.

[陳德聰]

I am glad Demonic_Duck could understand what you didn't in my responses and give a bit of an extra explanation.

 

I think you have confused denotation and connotation. But perhaps this was a misunderstanding that went both ways. I do not disagree with your claims about denotation. I disagree with your claims about connotation.

The word 差别 can "mean" disparity. That is, it has an accessible definition of disparity (more precisely, can denote disparity). I have already given my agreement for this in #7, which you seem to have given a downvote (not that I mind), so perhaps you could go back and read it a bit more carefully. However, you seem to have taken this to mean that I concede to a connotation of disparity. I definitely, definitely, definitely do not.

 

When choosing which word (out of 差别、差异、区别) to use, you choose based on the reality of the world (i.e. the world we talk about when discussing semantics) you are speaking about. That is where I agree with your comment that "context matters". It very much does. OP asked about how to differentiate these words when they all mean "difference"; this is my context.

However, the thing about connotation is that it is something that comes in addition to the primary denotation of the word. So you saying that 差别 carries a disparity connotation is quite a powerful statement. It means that when I want to denote a general difference, using 差别 also connotes disparity. But when 差别 denotes general difference (and it is one of the most basic words to do so), it does not connote disparity. It only "means" disparity when it is being used to denote disparity, here there is no connotation of difference because difference is entailed by disparity. Simply having a secondary definition of disparity does not equate to having a connotation of disparity.

Additionally, I do have some qualms with the hypothetical you set up, but it does not relate to the connotation vs. denotation issue and is more of a general language use issue:

 

For question one, you'd probably get the stats on the vehicles, i.e., this one has more trunk room, this one has more cabin space, this one has a more powerful engine, this one costs more, this one has slightly better gas mileage.

For question two, it would depend on what vehicles you are comparing.  If one was a hybrid and one a conventional, you'd probably get a discussion of Green Technology principles; if between a car and an SUV, you'd get descriptions of the functional differences between pure passenger transport of a sedan and the flexibility to move people or things and the option to go off-road of an SUV

For question three, it would depend, again, on what vehicles were being compared.  I think you'd get less detail and more of a description of large differences than 差别.

 

I think this is one of those hypotheticals that isn't really helpful. I wouldn't ask about a 差异 between two cars. That doesn't make sense. In this case only 差别 and 区别 would be appropriate, and I would actually tend towards 区别 here. On top of that, I would expect to get a less general description from 区别. That runs pretty much contrary to your speculation. I have a friend who would likely tell you that in this situation you are 想太多了, and I would tend to agree with him.

 

And finally, perhaps I should explain that the majority, if not all of my comments about Mandarin usage combine my own experience as an early onset (child) L2 learner, my study of linguistics, and the opinions of native informants (boyfriend, friends, family, in that order). So take it for what you will.

[Nathan Mao]

@陳德聰

I see language, particularly the intersection of two disparate languages, as extremely ambiguous, with shadings and tones as varied as a million-color palette.

The English speakers on this website include American, British, and Australian.

The native Chinese speakers come from Singapore, Taiwan, China.  The mainland Chinese include Cantonese and Mandarin speakers at the very least, and probably other dialects.

The people studying Chinese include those who are mainly in northern China, and in Taiwan, and in southern China, and those studying in the US.

 

We have all read different works, watched different shows, had different teachers, studied different courses, and practiced our Chinese with different generations of people in different locations.

 

Our understanding of the language will change more we study.  I have a different grasp of certain words now than when I was at the 5-year point.  It is possible and even likely that a simpler understanding from more than a decade ago is actually more accurate than the understanding I have now.  But it is more likely that the intervening years have increased my understanding rather than decreased.

 

To me, that means that we will all have slightly different understanding of language.  No two people will have the exact same understanding of any word/phrase.

 

To me, that means that one person's viewpoint on the best definition of a word or best way to understand or translate a phrase will never be complete, and the more people that weigh in, the better.  The more slightly differing opinions of a word or phrase that is offered, the more we all can exchange, and learn, and understand better.

As such, your opinion that there is rarely a connotation of disparity and my opinion that there is often an additional connotation of disparity could conceivably both be 100% right, depending on which Chinese culture and which English culture you exist, study, and practice in.  

 

In the last few rebuttals, there seems to be some statements that are dangerously close to the "strawman" logical fallacy.

 

So let me recap my take:

I haven't encountered 差异 that often, and I haven't had much occasion to use it, so I don't have much of an opinion beyond what Vivi MENG said.

I have encountered and use 差别 and 区别 quite often.

My impression is that 区别 means to differentiate, or distinguish, or the difference that helps one differentiate/distinguish.  In using 区别 to ask a question or describe things, the point is to highlight the things that help one easily recognize the difference. As such, there is less likely to be a comparison, unless it is a comparison easily seen at a glance, and is more likely to be an easily noticed attribute. (this is an update from my original statement on 区别 after I've thought about it more).

My impression of 差别 is that it means difference, but often has an air of comparison, on a scale where the attributes can be measured.  If you ask 差别, you are more likely to get longer/shorter, bigger/smaller, more/less expensive...you are less likely to get blue vs red. 

For instance, if you are talking about the 差别/区别 of your friends, the fact that Bill is 1/2 inch taller than John is a 差别, but not a good 区别。 If you mention Bill wears glasses but John does not, that would be a good answer for 他们有什么区别。 My impression is that if you asked, 他们有什么差别, to get an answer that Bill wears glasses and John does not just sounds funny.  I could be way wrong on that, but it still just sounds a little off to me.

 

Another way to put it: 区别 would be talking about the differences between apples and oranges, 差别 would be talking about the differences between apples and apples.  

 

Aside from my impression/experience, the evidence that my impression of some sort of comparison flavor to 差别 is:

1) In every dictionary I've checked, 差别 has two definitions: difference and disparity.  Of course, those are two denotations.  But if those are two common denotations, it seems a stretch to insist that there can be no connotation, or even mostly no connotation.  The fact that there are two such denotations means that anyone familiar with the language will most likely at least consider the connotation, because they have to depend on context to determine which denotational version is correct, no?

2) the character 差 itself indicates a disparity. Whether cha1 or cha4, every definition denotes a lack, or a mistake, or failing to match up to a standard, or reduction...those are all disparities of some sort  The only time 差 does not have that denotation of a disparate comparison is when it is chai1, chai4, or ci1...but since every definition of cha, regardless of tone, includes a comparative disparity, that indicates that the 差 of 差别 still carries that same connotation of disparate comparison.

 

I can't say this too many times: My impression may be wrong.  I'd love to see some examples from native text, whether books or movies. I don't think I've achieved anything close to perfection in my Chinese study; I would prefer to improve my Chinese, and if I have a mistaken understanding, I would love to correct it.

 

I just don't find judgmental comments directed at individuals to be as persuasive as specific language examples.

[Nathan Mao]

@陳德聰

Also, I hope you have/had a happy birthday!

[陳德聰]

Thanks for your birthday wishes. i don't want to endlessly bump this thread, but I have been mulling it over for a while now and consulting as many of my friends as possible without trying to influence their answers about the question of 差别.

 

I think the best response I've gotten so far is from my friend who looked at me quizzically and asked about the word "difference". She asked me if I think the word "difference" carries the connotation that there is some sort of measurable value/disparity involved with the word. I spent a few moments thinking about it, and I think we would both agree that there is not.

 

But she pursued by asking me why not, if "difference" means the remainder when you subtract two things, why there isn't some sort of subtractive connotation to the word "difference"?

 

I see 差别 in precisely the same way as the word "difference". It's true that 区别 can't be used to mean the "remainder" type difference, but just because 差别 can doesn't mean it always holds that connotation.

In addition, after re-reading the thread I noticed that you may have taken exception to my comment on your using google translate. What I meant by that was, every Chinese-Chinese dictionary you check lists 差别 under 区别, sometimes vice versa, and all of them with 不同. I think this is more indicative of usage than using evidence from Chinese-English dictionaries (though Google Translate, I do not consider a dictionary in the first place), as they are a secondary source that has to go through translation before it's of any use. I think we both know how much can be lost or mangled in translation.

PS. I am Canadian and I am mildly saddened that you listed Australian English and left us out.