Virtual immersion

[hedwards]

Hi all. I did a quick search and I didn't see any discussions on this, and I think it's about time.

 

Anyways, for those not familiar, virtual immersion is essentially a repurposing of that common ex-pat practice of spending time only amongst foreigners in bars and restaurants that replicate back home, then wondering why the language studies aren't going anywhere. If you've spent time away from your home country, you probably know what I'm talking about.

 

Virtual immersion is in some ways better than actual immersion because you get to schedule it a bit more. It's a lot more practical to decide that M-Sa outside of work are going to be Chinese days with a day off to rest, than it is if you're in country and pretty much stuck with Chinese at all times. The main downside is that since you're not forced to use the language most of the waking hours, it's easier to avoid and you learn a lot less about the cultural aspects that went into shaping the particular Chinese that you're interested in.

 

Thanks to a couple previous threads :

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/42193-chinese-radio-stations/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/27581-online-mandarin-radio/

 

Some that I already knew about:

audials.com

tuneit.com

youku.com

 

For speaking actual interactions there's a few choices.

QQ is probably the one I use the most. For those that aren't aware it's sort of like the Chinese Facebook, but It's best to sandbox the app as it has horrendous security.

italki.com and http://sharedtalk.com/ are both common sites that people use for language exchange.

 

Edit 2014年4月25日：

An interesting podcast entry about learning from listening. I think it overly emphasizes listening, but it will help develop listening skills.

http://www.languageisculture.com/episode2/

 

Edit: 2014年5月4日

TED Talk by Chris Lonsdale about learning a language in 6 months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yGdNEWdn0

 

I'm curious if anybody else has some thoughts on this, or resources.

[Nathan Mao]

I thought similarly to this once before.

I was improving in my Chinese, and people were grumbling that it was because I had a Chinese wife. They already being married to native English speakers, they felt it was difficult/impossible to improve or even maintain their Chinese. They were resentful regarding the pressure they had to maintain and improve their Chinese with few resources (i.e., they were agitating to be sent to China or Taiwan once/year for language immersion).

 

I pointed out that I was participating in a Chinese church.  I attended church (2 hours), choir practice (1 hour), and bible study (2 hours) every week.  That was 5 hours/week of immersion, and so in one year I received as much immersion as they would in 2 weeks in China.  

 

That, I argued, was the true reason my Chinese was improving.

[Meng Lelan]

Wondering if your Chinese wife speaks and writes to you in Chinese?

[hedwards]

@Nathan, basically any use of the language should help, but typically there needs to be somebody else there to verify that the use is correct. With that much time spent every week, it's not surprising that you made so much progress.

 

I'm guessing that either their spouses aren't using the language at all, or are trying to use the methods that the Chinese usually use to learn, neither of which is going to help make much progress. It can be frustrating and somewhat challenging to the ego, but there is definitely a stage where the adult version of babytalk is called for.

 

I've also found that when there's too much exposure, the brain doesn't get the chance to rest and assimilate the information. It's definitely possible to push through that, but IMHO, it tends to be kind of stressful and tiring. Which is OK for children who have no other things they need to do, but for adults, we usually have jobs and chores to deal with.

[Nathan Mao]

@Meng Lelan,

When she's angry: Chinese

The rest of the time, she insists on using English to improve her English skills.

[Nathan Mao]

@hedward

The "others" in my anecdote were military linguists married to native-English-only non-linguist civilians.

 

Many of them were the type that if they had been given the immersion trip to China, they would have spent all their free time in ex-Pat bars speaking English because they were "too tired" to keep using Chinese after a hard day of 4 hours of Chinese class.

[Meng Lelan]

When she's angry: Chinese

 

 

 

Wow, what I'd like to be is the invisible fly on the wall to hear that. I'm sure that doesn't happen often. 

[Nathan Mao]

 

 

I'm sure that doesn't happen often. 

 

You don't know any Chinese women, eh? ;)

 

I kid, I kid!

[Nathan Mao]

The anecdote about church was 15 years ago with my ex-wife (also Chinese)...the main point I wanted to make back then was that it wasn't like I married a Chinese woman and sat back drinking mai-tais while the Chinese soaked in. I did a lot of work, listened to Chinese music constantly, asked questions, and made the most of every opportunity I had to speak Chinese.  Whenever I offered to lend them a CD of Chinese music, or lend them a Chinese novel to read, or for them to come to church/bible study with me, or any of the things I did on my own to improve my Chinese, they always had excuses of being too busy or not interested in the culture, etc.  I resented that they ignored all my hard work and sacrifice and chalked it up to my (ex-) wife, who really did little to nothing to improve my Chinese. At that point, she had completely dropped using Chinese at all.

 

Now, my current wife is much more helpful.

 

I should add, she also uses Chinese for more complicated topics. 

 

The full story is: of course being married to a Chinese spouse can be incredibly useful resource for language learning.

She answers grammar/vocab questions for me.

She suggests books and movies/TV shows to watch together.  She picks out the best ones and points out the social aspects revealed in them.

Her family doesn't speak any English, so visiting her family is another immersion opportunity.

[JustinJJ]

When she's angry: Chinese

The rest of the time, she insists on using English to improve her English skills.

 

 

That sounds a bit selfish. With my girlfriend we'll speak English about half the time, Chinese half the time. Outdoors it's mainly Chinese, which I prefer because it's more private. She works as an interpreter so maybe she's not as concerned on improving her English skills.

 

 

Many of them were the type that if they had been given the immersion trip to China, they would have spent all their free time in ex-Pat bars speaking English because they were "too tired" to keep using Chinese after a hard day of 4 hours of Chinese class.

 

 

I was the opposite in China. After half  day learning Chinese, hanging out with expats was the last thing I wanted to do; I couldn't see the value in putting in the effort to study hard only to dillute the effort by socialising with expats. They sound a bit lazy lol.

[Nathan Mao]

@JustinJJ,

It's complicated. To be totally truthful, we always speak a mix. At times, if I speak too much Chinese for too long, she'll remind me that I'm keeping her from being able to get better at interacting in the American environment in which she lives.

And my both my Ability in my second language and my confidence are greater than hers, so...

[Olle Linge]

I think this is an interesting topic, but I don't agree at all that it is in any way more practical or easier than normal immersion in a Chinese-speaking environment, with the possible exception of very advanced learners who can read and listen to almost anything. The problem for everybody else is to find interesting material to immerse in. You have to find everything for yourself, whereas living in a Chinese-speaking environment, your minimum dose of Chines is bound to be relatively high just by being among Chinese people, even if you have few local friends.

 

I have written an article about this that discusses both the problems and how to overcome them. It also lists several useful ways of covering the different skills while creating your own immersion environment. You can read the article here: Immersion at home or: Why you don’t have to go abroad to learn Chinese

[hedwards]

Olle,  when it comes to real immersion, it's a grinder. It's a bit like trying to learn to swim by being pushed out of a boat in the middle of a lake. You might learn to swim, but the process is so fear provoking that even if you manage it, you're likely to never go near water again.

 

You do have to spend a bit of time and effort to come into contact with native speakers or even learners, but because you have some more control over it, you have the time to practice drilling on things when your walking around rather than being constantly engaged in the random language needs of living. I know that my Chinese evolved to cover very specific needs, and because I had basically no control over what I was studying, I have tons of holes all over the place in my understanding. But for things that I needed to do every day, my Chinese was good enough that people would mistakenly think I was of a much higher level than I really am.

 

I'll take a look at your article, I haven't go the time right now, I have to leave in a few minutes for work and I have a couple other threads I've been neglecting. But, I'm always interested in respectfully stated alternative views.

[roddy]

Another couple of relatively quick changes might be to switch browser / OS / app languages around when you're in immersion mode; and keep a parallel set of bookmarks - if you normally visit news.bbc.co.uk on a regular basis, have a link to the Chinese version in an 'immersion' folder. 

[hedwards]

Excellent thanks. It's looking more and more like my virtual immersion might be turning into actual immersion again this summer, but I'll be in a much stronger position from all the listening I'm doing. It's amazing how much slower the natives sound after even just a month or so of listening to the radio.

[kikosun]

I'm not in a real immersion environment, but I switched my phone and some computer apps to Chinese language mode so i get some daily quick chinese. I think it annoys my boyfriend when he picks up my phone and can't read any of the settings though lol.

[ZhiMu]

I'm working on compiling a list for daily immersion opportunities in Los Angeles and other major cities in the US.  For the past year I have slowly shifted my life into a more Mandarin speaking world primarily outside of China (Taiwan and other Mandarin speaking countries). I spend my weekend's in the San Gabriel Valley where one can completely survive with only Mandarin, took a new job as the lead project manger for the design of Forever 21 stores in Asia (engaged in daily conversations with China and Taiwan), replaced 90% of my TV with Mandarin content, requested my partner to speak Mandarin 50% of the time when at home (due to some resistance we might be at 25% in reality), attend a number of meet-up groups focused on learning Mandarin, became a remote client of AllSet Learning in Shanghai, practice with a teacher one-on-one 2-4 hours a week, only listen to music on QQ-Music, practice 3 hours a week with a friend living in Shanghai, listen to ChinesePod daily and made a lot of friends in China that I now speak to daily on WeChat.

 

I am interested on what others do...  I would love to hear some out-side-the-box ideas.

 

Since I'm new here I guess I'm not allowed to post links yet.  This list I am working on is a growing collection on my blog.  Google lostinchinese all one word.  It will be the first to pop up.

[imron]

Merged.  Although not directly related, see also Tamu's post on independent study which has loads of good information.

 

Google lostinchinese all one word.

Rather than asking people this, just put a link in your signature (configured in your profile).  People who are interested in your posts will probably click it at some point and it avoids the need to make 'hey everyone look at my blog' style comments.