Overseas Chinese communities

[马杰]

After living and working in Shanghai for two years, I am pretty aware of the dangers of groups like AmCham, Brit Cham and AusCham. Since I'm American, AmCham is the main concern.

Having attended several China/Taiwan/US forums in my locality in the US, I am aware of some of dangerous opinions of some so-called "intellectuals".

Taiwanese observers I"ve met are concerned about the friendly face that CCP officials put on here, while they carry stacks of Zhang Yi Mou DVD's to hand out to everyone they meet.

I've read parts of "Loosing the New China" and had drinks with those types of people in the Tong Ren Road bars. To confirm how true that book is, a senior marketing exec I was flirting and drinking with at a stateside party confirmed the constant problem that Cisco has with their China execs, engineering managers and sales people giving out stuff and info they shouldn't be.

You have to wonder why China Telecom gave Cisco an exclusive contract to upgrade the company's national core router network when Huawei could've done an equivalent job at a fraction of the cost, and Huawei could've gained alot of useful experience in the process.

Ask Why.

But as mainland immigrants increase their numbers in the US, the CCP may have more influence in local affairs. The people here can't really be touched, but all of these immigrants have parents, friends, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc back on the mainland and withinn full reach of the party.

[gato]

After living and working in Shanghai for two years, I am pretty aware of the dangers of groups like AmCham, Brit Cham and AusCham. Since I'm American, AmCham is the main concern.

What's AmCham?

I've read parts of "Loosing the New China" and had drinks with those types of people in the Tong Ren Road bars. To confirm how true that book is, a senior marketing exec I was flirting and drinking with at a stateside party confirmed the constant problem that Cisco has with their China execs, engineering managers and sales people giving out stuff and info they shouldn't be.

They've made the bet that they have more to gain than to lose by working with the Chinese. If you don't agree, you can try to get your politicians to change the law if you're really serious.

[TSkillet]

What's AmCham?

.

American Chamber of Commerce

[马杰]

What's AmCham?

They've made the bet that they have more to gain than to lose by working with the Chinese. If you don't agree' date=' you can try to get your politicians to change the law if you're really serious.[/quote']

This is not about simple industrial espionage between Hauwei or Bear and Foreign companies, much of the "smuggled" technology involves stuff that can be used to increase The Great Firewall's capabilities, SMS tracking and cyberattacks.

Some might see this as a problem.

[bhchao]

I don't think they're destabilizing local US overseas Chinese communities. I will admit the presence of CNP members might be a little worrying, but I've never seen the tension in the three US cities where I've lived (SF, LA, Houston) between Mainland and Taiwanese immigrants

I also have not seen the tension between mainland and Taiwanese immigrants in the Chinese communities in LA. However Taiwanese immigrants tend to socialize with other Taiwanese immigrants and get along best with each other, while mainland immigrants mingle with other mainland immigrants.

The mentality and personal demeanor are quite different between the two sets of immigrants.

[gato]

This is not about simple industrial espionage between Hauwei or Bear and Foreign companies, much of the "smuggled" technology involves stuff that can be used to increase The Great Firewall's capabilities, SMS tracking and cyberattacks.

They'd probably be able to develop the technology on their own, if they don't get it from Cisco. They have plenty of engineers and programmers. What do you propose?

[马杰]

China may be able to develop the software technology on it's own, but it would rather have it right now vs a few years down the road. Also, you need robust hardware as part of the infrastructure, and Cisco, 3com and Nortel (another company implicated in handing over high end internet tech to the 公安部 ).

This may not be the best example, but remember that Richard Gere movie about the exec who gets set up for murder in mid 80s Beijing? The American embassy rep, after telling him repeatedly there was little the US could because of other sensitive business negotiations, at the end of the movie tells Gere's character "we were with you all of the way" even though it was Gere's chinese lawyer who got him sprung.

So first, we need to "fix" our overly corporate friendly US gov't. Next, we need to isolate the US expat community as they are the source of these "colorful" transactions. They have their rights as US citizens, but they represent a threat to both human rights and US foreign policy.

If you've ever worked with some of the members of AmCham, they'll make your skin crawl when they share their views with you (their views usually revolve around " Me first and I don't care about the effects of my actions on other people".

Though some of you may jump up to defend the actions of these dirtballs and dirtball companies, remember that the examples of handing over internet technology to the PSB I cited negatively affect the lives of mainland people who wish to express their views and concerns.

[gato]

China may be able to develop the software technology on it's own, but it would rather have it right now vs a few years down the road. Also, you need robust hardware as part of the infrastructure, and Cisco, 3com and Nortel (another company implicated in handing over high end internet tech to the 公安部 ).

If you have any influence with them, you could suggest that they leave a backdoor.

[马杰]

Hey, maybe you could ask Bill Gates for a backdoor, MS now helps the aunties and uncles patrol the internet for inappropriate material.

[canuck]

I also have not seen the tension between mainland and Taiwanese immigrants in the Chinese communities in LA. However Taiwanese immigrants tend to socialize with other Taiwanese immigrants and get along best with each other' date=' while mainland immigrants mingle with other mainland immigrants.

The mentality and personal demeanor are quite different between the two sets of immigrants.[/quote']

This is quite common wherever you go. People tend to stick to each other because of language, culture, and perhaps even for political reasons. I feel that it is important to unite the Chinese communities, how about u?

[bhchao]

This is quite common wherever you go. People tend to stick to each other because of language, culture, and perhaps even for political reasons. I feel that it is important to unite the Chinese communities, how about u?

There is a great degree of cohesion among the Chinese communities overseas, and they tend to rally behind the "motherland" during China's disputes with other nations. I also feel that this cohesion, and living peacefully with one another, is important.

One thing I find unique about the overseas Chinese is that no other nation except China has an overseas population so attached to their Chinese roots, ethnic culture, and China itself. I find this a stark contrast to people like the American-born Japanese, who have a much weaker affinity to their country of origin.

The Korean communities, like Koreatown in LA, are quite loyal and devoted to their national interests in Korea, but the overseas Korean population is much smaller than the overseas Chinese population.

[gato]

One thing I find unique about the overseas Chinese is that no other nation except China has an overseas population so attached to their Chinese roots, ethnic culture, and China itself. I find this a stark contrast to people like the American-born Japanese, who have a much weaker affinity to their country of origin.

That's probably because most Chinese Americans we see in the US mainland are first- or second-generation Americans. Most Japanese Americans, by contrast, are fourth- or fifth-generation Americans because there hasn't been much recent immigration from Japan.

There are many more third/fourth/fifth-generation Chinese Americans in Hawaii, a much larger fraction of whom are children of intermarriages. I don't think they're as attached to China and Chinese culture.

[bhchao]

That's probably because most Chinese Americans we see in the US mainland are first- or second-generation Americans. Most Japanese Americans, by contrast, are fourth- or fifth-generation Americans because there hasn't been much recent immigration from Japan.

That's true. Maybe I should not compare first or second generation Chinese-Americans with the sansei or yonsei. However ABC's are more likely to have closer relations with members of their own ethnic origin than ABJ's.

ABJs are far more likely to have assimilated themselves into the American mainstream, or become Americanized, than ABCs. There are American-born Chinese who also become Americanized, but a lot of them stay tuned or become attached to an aspect of their own ethnic culture to a greater degree than American-born Japanese.

Also Japanese-Americans are much more likely to be in interracial marriages than Chinese-Americans or Korean-Americans. American-born Japanese make up the greatest instances of interracial marriages between an Asian and a white in America. In contrast, American-born Chinese are more likely to marry someone within their own ethnicity. There are exceptions of course. I almost dated an American-born Japanese girl (very nice girl, and we had a mutual liking for each other) when I was in college, but chose not to due to personal familial considerations.

[gato]

Ok maybe I should not compare first or second generation Chinese-Americans with the sansei or yonsei. However ABC's are more likely to have closer relations with members of their own ethnic origin than ABJ's.

How about the ABCs whose parents or grandparents are ABCs? I had a few classmates of that background in high school, and I didn't detect any overt affinity towards Chinese culture on their part. That connection inevitably fades if one doesn't live in a ethnically segregated neighborhood. So the ABCs of NYC and SF would likely feel a greater connection to China. There are still genuine Greek and Italian neighborhoods in Queens and Brooklyn in NY. The Greek and Italian residents there, too, feel a greater connection to their ancestral homelands, even though they might be 3rd or 4th generation Americans.

I couldn't find any good historical numbers on the national origins of Asian immigrants, but here's a very basic analysis:

http://goldsea.com/AAD/Parsing/parsing2.html

[bhchao]

How about the ABCs whose parents or grandparents are ABCs? I had a few classmates of that background in high school, and I didn't detect any overt affinity towards Chinese culture on their part. That connection inevitably fades if one doesn't live in a ethnically segregated neighborhood. So the ABCs of NYC and SF would likely feel a greater connection to China. There are still genuine Greek and Italian neighborhoods in Queens and Brooklyn in NY. The Greek and Italian residents there, too, feel a greater connection to their ancestral homelands, even though they might be 3rd or 4th generation Americans.

There is some truth to that, regarding a closer connection to one's national origin when one grows up in an ethnically segregated neighborhood. However that is not always the case.

For example, the Chinese-American actor Russell Wong, was born in upstate New York, grew up there, and was born to a Chinese father and a Dutch mother. He identifies himself closely with his father's place of origin, and has tried to be a good role model for Chinese-Americans. He also lived in Manhattan's Chinatown (and preferred living there than anywhere else in Manhattan) as a mature adult despite his upbringing in an American suburban environment. He has close connections with friends in Hong Kong.

My cousin was born and grew up in southern Orange County, an area that is about 70-80% Caucasian, but he speaks Cantonese and identifies closely with his Cantonese roots. But he and I are second-generation Chinese-Americans, so you're probably right about the plurality of first- and second-generation Chinese-Americans being a major factor in the attraction to Chinese culture.

I have a third-generation Japanese-American friend whose Nisei parents met in the internment camps in California during WWII. He does not speak Japanese. Perhaps as more third or fourth-generation Chinese-Americans enter into the majority, they will become more similar to the sansei or yonsei.

[gato]

Yes, knowing the language is pretty key, but since Chinese is hard to master because of the writing system, I would only expect the most motivated of those in the 3rd or 4th-generation to gain fluency in it. Chinese culture is so different from Euro-American culture that one kind of has to choose one or the other, at least implicitly. Maybe the world cultural and economic balance will have changed in a couple of decades to change things.

[canuck]

I'm a 3rd generation Canadian-born Chinese. Like you have mentioned, someone like me won't have any connections to the 'motherland', which is true. I can get by with Cantonese - but far from being fluent. Can't speak a sentence of Mandarin too. Can't read nor write Chinese. But in many other ways I have a need to connect to my Chinese side - mainly the cultural aspects rather than history or politics. When I visited China a couple of years ago I really felt that I have taken my family full circle. My grandfather left that area over half a century ago. And there I was, an overseas Chinese, stepping foot in a country so foreign to me. For the first time I really felt ethnically Chinese as in being a part of them.

[gato]

Canuck: Good for you.

Bhchao: I notice that many Korean Americans go to Korean churches, which probably help keep their community together abroad. Overseas Chinese don't have a common institution of that kind.

[Outofin]

It maybe a little off the topic. I heard South Korea is a Christian country and they have the biggest church in the world. What made Christianity so successful among them?

I don't go to church. I go to Chinese grocery store on Sunday. I need those kinds of foods to keep myself alive. I'm in an everyone-knows-everyone community. It may sound lack of privacy. It's actually good because people here are all well educated.

[gato]

The article below says that the percentage of Christians in South Korean has climbed from 3% in 1965 to 25-30% today. A friend of mine is married to a very religious Christian Korean woman. He says that some Koreans may join the church as a means to gain social connections because a lot of prosperous Koreans are church members and the Protestant churches there apparently do preach a version of "gospel of prosperity," something like if you believe in God, good things will happen to you. He says some churches in Korea have even started preaching in English to kids, so learning English may be a lure, too. When I was in college at Berkeley, the students who approached me to talk about Jesus were usually Koreans. But there were plenty of Chinese students in the Christian student groups, usually Taiwanese. The Christians do seem to have a stronger sense of the public good than the Confucians, so it may be an improvement.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=11072002-050417-6163r

Korea -- a Christian success story

By Uwe Siemon-Netto

Published 7/11/2002 5:47 PM

Christians amounted to a mere 3 percent of South Korea's population in 1965 but were strongly represented among those who raised their voices for change, said David Lunsdaine, regional director for Asia of the massive research project that was funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts of Philadelphia. Lunsdaine is a professor at the Korean Development Institute in Seoul.

Today, Christians make up between 25 and 30 percent of all South Koreans. But Hong's findings showed that they participate politically and intellectually in much higher numbers than their share of the population.

In the legislature, nearly two-thirds of all deputies belong to one church or another. Of the 273 members of parliament, 108 (39.6 percent) are Protestants, chiefly of evangelical persuasion, while 69 (25.3 percent) are Catholics. Some belong to mega-congregations, such as the Yoido Full Gospel Church, which has 750,000 members and is arguably the largest in the world.

Of course Presidents Kim Young-sam and Kim Dae-jung, who have ruled South Korea since the Seoul's military regime was deposed in 1987 with the active support of Protestant and Catholics, are both committed Christians.

Their influence goes far beyond parliamentary politics, however. It shapes civil society to a considerable extent, according to Hong. In the 1990s, Christians took a lead in creating social movements that according to Hong were a "valuable resource which contributed to the democratization of Korea."

Hong startled the Potomac conference with the news that of South Korea's 1,150 non-governmental organizations, a full 70 percent were Christian-based, by some estimates, while there are only very few Buddhist NGOs.

Theologically-based movements such as the growing Christian Ethics Movement are exerting a significant influence on Korean society. The CEM focuses on a vast smorgasbord of issues.

It campaigned against corruption and dishonesty, societal lasciviousness and consumerism on the one hand, and for civic education, fair elections and justice on the other.