Z-Visa for Shanghai denied

[Squealer]

Hi board members,

my application for a Z-Visa was rejected. My situation is a bit different than for most, as I am still in my home country. My company was going to send me to Shanghai on a long term assignment. Now they are checking other options to see what can be done.

My question is if anyone has experience with updating an existing application or submitting an entirely new application. With hindsight, my first application was never going to get anywhere. Still, the agency said the papers looked good and submitted them. I listed for example my master's degree in the application, which means that I haven't got two years working experience since I graduated. Shouldn't they have realized that pre-degree experience wouldn't help me much?

The other funny point is that the agency or the HR department in China don't know why my application got rejected in the first place. All other posters on this or other boards did have this information though.

Also, if restarting the process is actually an option, I found advice like including requirements as liasing with foreign/ Western clients, native language requirements, etc. into the job description. Any more suggestions are very welcome!

Any helpful thoughts or comments are much appreciated.

[hedwards]

Doing business in China can be rather random at time, to get a Z visa you're supposed to have 2 years worth of experience as well as an appropriate degree. I do know of cases where teachers received a Z visa without having a 4 year degree, and I suspect that "drinking money" may have been involved as they didn't have the experience or a real teaching certification either. As far as I can tell, the experience doesn't need to be in the field you're wanting to work in, so if you've got 2 years of any sort of work experience, that should probably have been included.

 

I've never worked in Shanghai, but China still behaves very differently at the local level, what the officials in one area of China do doesn't always match with what other regions are doing, even when they're supposed to be doing the same thing.

 

I don't have experience with resubmitting visa applications, but when I was over there we had to resubmit my residency permit extension application because we had the bad luck of running into an official that remembered me from 6 months ago and started asking uncomfortable questions about why I was moving. But, that wasn't a particularly big deal, I just had to write a letter explaining why I was moving and the permit was changed. I definitely got the sense that nobody involved in these processes is on the up and up, I'd advise against lieing simply because you really don't want to get caught lieing, but also realize that there seem to be weird conventions about how much truth is really necessary that may or may not make any sense.

[Squealer]

Thanks for your post.
 

I also know at least two people with corporate jobs who did get on the job training at home. When they were sent to China they had no university degree though. The company settled these issues for them.

And I see your point, being able to personally sort out things may be easier at times. My main concern at the moment is however whether I can risk submitting an entirely new application.

[hedwards]

Squealer, that's hard to say. At the present the Chinese system uses a ton of paper to handle things and once there's a stamp on it they don't seem to have any way of challenging it. My coworker suddenly became "Canadian" at one point because of a paperwork goof up, but the paper had the appropriate official stamp on it and that wasn't a problem for them. They had the paper work and they looked at her passport. I'd be shocked if the official didn't realize that he was looking at an American passport rather than a Canadian one.

 

It would be irresponsible of me to suggest that this is necessarily common, but it is likely that you're concerns are somewhat overblown. The best advice would be to have an agent handle the application process. I personally had Oasis handle mine, but I'm not sure what agent would be appropriate for where you're located.

[zhouhaochen]

Unfortunately this has changed. Until not very long ago it was basically that you went to the Chinese embassy and kept trying to apply until it worked. Since last autumn several this is different. To submit a completely new application after you were rejected that basically tells a new story (effectively saying that some things you submitted previously were not true) is very risky and might lead to the whole thing to be rejected. I would highly recommend that you talk to a local visa agency (one that specialises in Chinese visas and does a large volume of visas at the embassy you are applying at, to they know how local visa officers usually handle things) and work with them.

 

I can give you some more detailed information if I know it (to my best knowledge - no guarantees for anything, Chinese embassies are very unpredictable), but would need to know at which exact consulate you applied for, why the visa was rejected (and how? at the counter or later?), if you did it yourself or through an agency, your nationality, previous Chinese visa history (this is important these days), whom you talked to at the embassy (if you went yourself etc.)

[zhouhaochen]

ah, just remembered one more piece of imoprtant information: did you apply at the consulate directly or via one of the "visa processing centres" that they have set up in several countries now?

[roddy]

Or actually, and I suspect this is the case, did you even get to the point of applying in your home country, or was this an application made by your HR department in Shanghai to have the local authorities issue some kind of invitation letter / employment permit?

 

I don't think the embassies care too much about your work experience - they process visas for all over China, and it's not their job to keep up with how the rules are implemented where, and who should get to be a special case. They just want to see that someone official in the city you're going to has said 'yes, he can come and work here'. I *think* that's the stage you've stumbled at. 

 

Which is a good thing - it means you haven't been rejected for a visa, as you haven't even got around for applying yet. 

 

I'm quite out of date on these matters though. 

[Squealer]

 It would be irresponsible of me to suggest that this is necessarily common, but it is likely that you're concerns are somewhat overblown. The best advice would be to have an agent handle the application process. I personally had Oasis handle mine, but I'm not sure what agent would be appropriate for where you're located.

 

@Hedwards: there was already an agency involved, so I could of course switch agency or go another way applying at home, etc. but would that actually help me?

 

 

I would highly recommend that you talk to a local visa agency (one that specialises in Chinese visas and does a large volume of visas at the embassy you are applying at, to they know how local visa officers usually handle things) and work with them.

 

As said, I did that already, but the application was not very successful.

 

 

I can give you some more detailed information if I know it (to my best knowledge - no guarantees for anything, Chinese embassies are very unpredictable), but would need to know at which exact consulate you applied for, why the visa was rejected (and how? at the counter or later?), if you did it yourself or through an agency, your nationality, previous Chinese visa history (this is important these days), whom you talked to at the embassy (if you went yourself etc.)

 

Cheers - would be much appreciated!

 

There was an agency involved, they submitted the papers (how and where exactly I do not know, but in Shanghai) and after 2.5 weeks they got the response that the visa was rejected. The exact reason was not communicated to me, but it must have been because no 2 year postgraduate was included in the application. Did at that point not have any Visa from China. I did not do anything at all, no embassy, no consulate, etc. involved.

[roddy]

I think, due to miscommunication within your company, that you're confused about what's happening. If you're overseas, there's no way anyone in Shanghai is applying for a visa for you. They're applying for what I guess is best described as a government permit to allow you to come and work in Shanghai - which is necessary for you to later apply for the visa in your home country, and then go to China (where you apply for something else called a residence permit, but we'll worry about that when we get there).

 

This is good news, as it means you haven't been rejected for a visa. I don't think there'll be anything on any kind of record (maybe in Shanghai, but I don't think nationally? Thoughts, anyone?) and you don't need to declare a past refusal on future visa applications.

[gato]

Roddy is right that you probably haven't applied for a Z visa yet since you can only apply for a Z visa from outside of China. Once you have the permit, you need to apply for the visa with your local Chinese consulate or embassy with it.

See the various steps here: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2012/05/17/obtaining-a-z-visa-work-permit-and-residence-permit-in-china.html

[hedwards]

Roddy is likely correct here. If you haven't received an invitation letter then you couldn't possibly be turned down for a Z-visa, the actual visa is something that you typically take to an embassy in your home country and apply for. Some of us live far enough away from an embassy that we send it to an agent to handle for us. But, if you  haven't received an invitation letter sent by mail from China, I don't think it's even possible to apply for a visa.

[Squealer]

 

Or actually, and I suspect this is the case, did you even get to the point of applying in your home country, or was this an application made by your HR department in Shanghai to have the local authorities issue some kind of invitation letter / employment permit?

 

I don't think the embassies care too much about your work experience - they process visas for all over China, and it's not their job to keep up with how the rules are implemented where, and who should get to be a special case. They just want to see that someone official in the city you're going to has said 'yes, he can come and work here'. I *think* that's the stage you've stumbled at.

 

Yepp the HR dep in Shanghai did it. And the work experience definitely matters (my experience and what I read on the net). But are you saying if I go to an embassy here, they will process the visa easily? Wouldn't they rather send the documentation to the PSB to China and await their answer?

 

Edit:

Sorry, now that I saw your new posts, doesn't really matter anymore.

Thanks hedwards, gato, roddy for pointing that out. I once asked this question directly to the HR department on what they are actually doing there, and how the process looks like. And what I have to do back home, but didn't really get an answer. I also looked at the a few guides, but I did not really get my head around at what stage my process is.

Anyway, thanks again!

So bottom line is: my concerns about submitting a modified application in Shanghai are most likely to be overblown, as hedwards said?

[zhouhaochen]

yes, the application was for a 就业证 (work permit) not a visa.

However, this does not mean applying again with a different application (and other documents that might contradict your previous ones) is without risk. We recently applied for a work permit for a member of staff in Beijing and the application was rejected due to what they said was missing paper work. We then submitted more documents, however the woman at the counter refused that application sipmly based on the fact that it was refused last time (even though there was no change in the documents, just more were submitted, the applicant had all necessary pre-conditions fulfilled). We then submitted the same application through an agent and then it was accepted. That application was however never rejected through the process, but right at the counter, so the only "record" the woman at the counter had was that she rememberd the application, which is why it worked through the agent I think.

 

However, in the end you have no other choice than try doing it again with the right paper work. However, I would be careful in changing the narrative of your life too drasticaly, they will most likely have a record of your previous application and they might look at it - the record keeping of the PSB has improved dramaticaly. They might call your company and/or even visit to check (they have done this with us in the past). If you get a good agent this improves your chances of handing it in, however what happens after this is beyond your or their control. If you are unsure regarding the documents, the best people to talk to are a good local visa agent or someone at an HR company at a big foreign company who has done this often recently as they have experience in what works or not. Everything you will get from us here is in the end guesswork - including our experience in Beijing which might be very different to how things are done in Shanghai.

 

What is certain is that things changed since last September and simply changing your application is not without risks anymore once it has been recorded. Also from what I heard from others, the two years of work experience after graduating seem to be a criteria that they insist on.

[Squealer]

zhouhaochen 

thank you for the explanations. I don't see any problem if they call my company. They should be prepared - what they always could do is say that there were translation errors, and that the agency mixed up the paperwork. Worst than can happen is that it gets rejected again I suppose. By the way, the agency apparently has said that the application is kept one month before it gets erased from the database. Can't get any exact information, as I am not directly in touch with them.

I do have one more question though: how would a good agency actually improve my chances of getting the work permit? I haven't fully understood what they are actually doing in this whole process?

 

Also: would it make any difference if I showed up in person? I mean going to China on a short term visa, go to HK, etc.?

[zhouhaochen]

that's interesting information, keeping the application on file for one month and then erasing it - I never heard of that but if true that is valuable knowledge. A good agency will know what works and what not currently in Shanghai. They will a) go through your paper work and already tell you before you apply whether this will most likely go through or not b) help you to make any improvements, tell you to provide other documents etc. to make the application stronger and c) will know what to tell the person at the counter who has to accept the application.

There used to be agencies with special connections who could get visas done that usually would not be possible, but this does not seem to exist anymore, at least in Beijing and Shanghai.

I do not think it makes a difference if you go there yourself, unless the agency tells you that they need it - however unless you are fluent in Mandarin and extremely charming so you can sweat talk the lady at the counter, I cannot see how this would improve your chances.

 

It sounds like your company's HR department does not have much experience with this process, which is why the agency is so important.

 

PS: keep in mind, if you cannot prove two years of work experience after graduating from university (preferable outside of China, because if you worked on another visa than a Z-visa in China there is a chance that they will say you were not on a working visa and therefore not working) your chances are pretty small.