The "Dark Meaning" of 5 Chinese Terms

[陳德聰]

I think it may reflect social class in a slightly older population, but even the classiest prim and proper of my friends can be heard throwing a 美女 around in restaurants. Though there is something much less horrifying about a dainty young woman calling a server "美女" than if I ever tried it, dainty as I am.

[Kenny同志]

Perhaps in their world, 师傅 is the standard greeting for adult men, since most men around them would indeed be 师傅? Perhaps they feel weird saying 先生 much as others feel weird saying 美女? I wouldn't take it personally if I were you, it's probably not intended as a judgement on their part.

 

 

I agree with you, Lu. It's just that I am not used to it yet.

[Nathan Mao]

I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions.  Language and culture are inseparable.

 

Why go to all the trouble of learning the best translation for a word if you attach your own cultural baggage to foreign words?

 

Or perhaps more accurately, if your translation fails to incorporate cultural values, it is an incorrect translation no matter what the dictionary says.

 

The way to address a young lady used to be 小姐, but now that implies "prostitute" in many parts of China, and now the way to address a young women in many parts of China is 美女.  And?  So?

 

I guess I don't understand why there is so much angst about that.  

[skylee]

So you don't.

[renzhe]

I think it's more of a generational thing than a cultural thing. The "older" generation (30+) seem to be more uncomfortable with it, but that's how these things work in any culture, really.

Philosophical considerations aside, I'd still feel uncomfortable using 美女 with someone I don't know. I cannot imagine that it could possibly come across as anything other than a dirty foreigner flirting with a waitress.

I guess it's that horrifying moment when you realise that you've become one of the "traditionalists" who "defend values" I have to do something outrageous now...

[Lu]

Why go to all the trouble of learning the best translation for a word if you attach your own cultural baggage to foreign words?

Because my cultural background ('baggage') is part of who I am, and I'm not changing into a Chinese person just because I'm speaking Chinese. A certain flexibility is required, expected and necessary, but it has limits.

 

And the 'best' translation is of course subjective anyway. The English 'sir' would be translated as 师傅 by migrant workers, 老板 by Hong Kong service industry folks, 同志 by a party boss, and 先生 by a white collar worker. None of them are wrong, but that doesn't mean foreigners should force themselves to use 师傅 if that feels weird to them.

[陳德聰]

Re: #43, much of the "angst" over this is coming from culturally Chinese people as well if you look carefully.

[gato]

Regardless of how people feel about the words, the question that's important for learners is how widely they are used and in what context. On that question, I can report that in Shanghai at least, "服务员" is a lot more commonly used than "美女" and "帅哥" when calling waitstaff in restaurant.

[imron]

The way to address a young lady used to be 小姐, but now that implies "prostitute" in many parts of China, and now the way to address a young women in many parts of China is 美女.  And?  So?

While not necessarily wrong, I think neither of these terms is as widespread as you imply.  小姐 means prostitute in the context of prostitutes.  I've still heard it used regularly in restaurants in the north (in a non-prostitute context), and also regularly as a term of address in areas outside of the north.  In Taiwan 小姐 seems to be used frequently as a polite term of address, even for older women.  Likewise I wouldn't say 美女 is *the* way to address a young woman in many parts of China.  It is one way in certain parts of China under certain circumstances.

 

As for "and?" and "so?", as a learner, I think it's important to understand when and when it is not acceptable to use certain phrases.

[hedwards]

This is all quite interesting. Seems to me that one should be using whatever the more conservative language is unless the locals are saying something else. Register is a tricky thing, but IMHO it's somewhat easier to speak too formally and politely and then lower the register when appropriate than it is to talk in a low class way and remember to class it up when appropriate.

 

In my experience, you do get a certain amount of leeway when it comes to these things by being an obvious foreigner. When possible I try not to learn language that's only appropriate at a particularly seedy bar.

 

Habitually the first time I meet people it's 您好 even when it's not technically necessary, after that I'll switch to the less formal 你好 as that's more often the appropriate register to be using. I'd prefer to be more polite on first meeting and then switch to a slightly less formal register for later meetings as appropriate. It also spares me a bit of thinking about register as we don't do that much in American English in these parts. In fact, I'm always somewhat taken aback when people refer to me as "sir."

[Nathan Mao]

 

 

Re: #43, much of the "angst" over this is coming from culturally Chinese people as well if you look carefully. 

And I would consider a native US Southerner's shock over a US Northerner's word choice (and the reverse), to be a little overwrought as well; and counsel them in the same manner.

 

Whichever term communicates the right concept in the right context is the one you should try to feel comfortable with.

[Nathan Mao]

@#49

I was not implying anything. I was echoing what other people had insisted was true.  I didn't have any problems using 小姐 in any of my trips to Taiwan, Guanzhou, Hanzhou, or Beijing over the last decade, but that's also because I can't even remember whether I used the term 小姐 on any of those trips.

 

My point was simply: Whichever term communicates the right concept in the context you are in is the one you should feel comfortable with.  Some people thought 美女 is sexist; I'm trying to insist the point that 美女 may well be a term as empty of literal meaning as the keywords of that old US joke, "Why do you park on a driveway and drive on a parkway?"

[Takeshi]

@Skylee: You say you find 美女 and 帅哥 offensive. Out of curiosity, do you also find 靚女 or 靚仔 (the Cantonese terms) to be offensive? (I don't know about Hong Kong, but in Guangzhou they are very common terms of address.)

 

I always considered 美女/帅哥 to be basically Mandarin equivalents of 靚女/靚仔. (Well, I mean, you can say liangnü or liangzai as well, and I guess those are real Mandarin equivalents, but, I think that's a calque/Guangzhou Mandarin thing.)

 

I guess if you find them offensive, but not the Cantonese terms, then I suppose they have different connotations?

[陳德聰]

I only use 靓仔 and 靓女 to address my friends, and it's usually a jocular greeting. For me, they're equivalent to 美女 and 帅哥.

Switching to another of the ones referred to by OP, perhaps it's important for people to know 孩子他妈 is a perfectly common expression, and can be followed by 的 without eliciting any sort of crazy "omg yew just swore at mee" reaction.

[Guest realmayo]

The way to address a young lady used to be 小姐, but now that implies "prostitute" in many parts of China, and now the way to address a young women in many parts of China is 美女. 

 

Yes I agree with Imron, this strikes me as incorrect, or at least a misleading oversimplification.

 

Also, it's not true that an outsider should assume that he can use 'in' words just as freely and with just the same connotations as they are used by the group he is trying to emulate. Doesn't work for foreign languages, doesn't work for certain racist/sexist/homophobic/etc terms that become adopted by the relevant groups but sound very different coming from the mouth of someone who is not part of that group. 

[skylee]

Re Takeshi's #53, I don't use 靚女 or 靚仔 to address people (strangers or friends) either. These terms are just very 輕佻 in my opinion. But as said above, there are regional differences, and there are also differences among older/younger people and "classes" (whatever that means).

I do use 靚女/靚仔 to describe people, e.g. 呢個人幾靚/靚女/靚仔 (but usually not in the presence of the person concerned as it is rude).

[abcdefg]

Also, it's not true that an outsider should assume that he can use 'in' words just as freely and with just the same connotations as they are used by the group he is trying to emulate.

 

Agree. Very perceptive.

 

It's considerations like that which keep me from addressing slightly younger Chinese guys as 兄弟。 

 

Plenty of times I've seen (Chinese) old pals who are fifty-plus addressing each other as 小伙子。 It's done with an implied smile.

 

Either of the above would sound strange coming from me, a foreigner, unless it were clear I was doing it as a joke.

[Demonic_Duck]

My first language exchange partner, when I was in England (she was mid-thirties, originally from Harbin, lived in Shanghai) called me 帅哥, and when I asked her what the female equivalent was, she gave 靓女.

 

Switching to another of the ones referred to by OP, perhaps it's important for people to know 孩子他妈 is a perfectly common expression, and can be followed by 的 without eliciting any sort of crazy "omg yew just swore at mee" reaction.

Good point, and can also be said 孩儿他/她妈.

[Takeshi]

@陳德聰 and skylee:

 

Oh, so it isn't a Mandarin/Cantonese difference, but you both don't use the Cantonese terms either!

 

Thank you for your insight. I'll try to be more careful with these terms under different regions/age groups/classes then. I never knew that they would be considered rude by some people. As I said, in Guangzhou (amongst I suppose low-class young people), they are extremely common ways to get the attention of a young person (they obviously wouldn't be used for older people), but especially a restaurant worker.

[skylee]

Yes I understand.  This blog is relevant -> http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_789625bf01017hws.html