Chinese Universities vs American Universities (need help asap)

[rbb1996]

Let me start by saying that I'm not the brightest student in the world. I cannot get into world-renowned universities like University of Chicago or Princeton. This question is directed specifically to comparing American mediocre universities like DePaul to Chinese universities with English programs.

I currently live in the United States, and my general plan is to attend a community college for 1.5-2 years and then transfer over to DePaul University (for financial reasons). I want to study Computer Science/Software Engineering. But recently, whilst browsing the internet, I stumbled upon Chinese universities. Many of these universities are completely English-taught and if you feel ambitious, the universities that seem to be more well regarded globally really only require a pretty basic Chinese comprehension test called HSK (or maybe I'm underestimating the difficulty of this test)? But even if I choose not to take this test, I can still join universities that are on par with DePaul or are even better, and cost MUCH less. For instance, Sichuan University only costs 22,000 yuan per year which turns out to be $3531!! THAT COSTS ALMOST AS MUCH MY COMMUNITY COLLEGE! (compared to DePaul's $35,000 or so)

Originally I have been born in South Africa (I'm white), since my parents escaped communism from Ukraine. I speak fluently in Russian so I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to grasp a couple of Chinese phrases if needed. Also, I feel that maybe my adaptation to such a radically different nation might be a little easier than somebody who grew up in the US and has never traveled overseas. The problem is that I've never been to Asia in my entire life and have no idea what the life is like. Furthermore, I have no idea how future employers will treat a degree from any of these kind of Chinese universities vs. a degree from DePaul.

 

So should I make a bland yet safe choice and go to DePaul whilst getting a fairly significant dept? Or should I go to China googly-eyed and ignorant, but with the fascination to have an experience like no other with tuition costs that come close to a plane ticket to the country itself? Does this all seem too good to be true or are most people simply too narrow-minded to research education in other nations? How do companies evaluate China's universities in comparison with American ones? What is it like living there as opposed to American suburbia? Is there anything that I should know before I make my decision?

Please, whoever can, assist me. I have very recently stumbled upon this opportunity and the deadlines in China are approaching very fast. I was unable to find ANY resources on the internet to assist me with my dilemma, and my decision needs to be made fairly soon. Any input will be greatly appreciated.

[Lu]

This thread has some information that might be relevant to you.

In short, if you're thinking of doing a degree in Chinese, only do this if you have a great interest in the culture and the language already and want to work very hard on your language skills. It certainly helps if you've learned a foreign language in the past, but Chinese is still damn hard, especially university-level Chinese. The HSK tests is offered at different levels, the more useful of which are not easy to pass. You can pass the lowest level with minimal Chinese, but the certificate that gives you is not much use.

If you're thinking of doing a degree in English, you will probably get better quality education (and a more well-regarded diploma) in the US. But the financial consequences are certainly something to take into account.

[renzhe]

Unless you already speak Chinese at a decent level, attending a university in Chinese is going to be excruciatingly difficult. It can be done, but Chinese is a very hard language, and doing this would make your degree much harder than it should be. You will be spending the majority of your time figuring out what was said and written, instead of learning the important concepts, which are challenging enough on their own.

China is a developing country, which is really advanced in some aspects, and rather backwards in many others. While some top universities in China rank well internationally, this is primarily based on their scientific output, created by doctoral and post-doctoral students and scholars who are under immense pressure to publish. It is not due to excellent teaching, but a combination of a really strong selection process (millions of students compete for the few positions at Beida, Tsinghua, Fudan, Shanghai Jiaotong, etc.), and an insane work ethos.

Going to study in a foreign country is awesome. It is the best thing I've ever done and I strongly believe that everybody should do it, without exception. But you should do it for the right reasons -- cultural exchange, learning a new language, adventure, and you can see the degree as a nice bonus. The chances of an American employer preferring Sichuan university to something American are very slim, unless it's a Chinese translator job.

[gato]

How about going to Germany? German shouldn't be too hard to learn for an English and Russian speaker.

[Lu]

And given that you were born in South Africa, why not there? Not sure if SA has any scholarships, and if you would be entitled to them, but it does have some good universities.

[rbb1996]

But like I said, the programs that I found in China are English-taught so I'm not sure how much Chinese I really need to know.

 

South Africa is too crime infested which is why we left in the first place. I've heard it's gotten even worse since we left so I'd rather not come back.

 

As for Germany, well there is really no point. The university cost plus living there is on par or even higher than commuting to an American university. Doesn't seem worth the hassle of moving, adapting to the culture, learning the language, etc.

[simpleasy]

If the programs are English-taught, then of course language isn't that much of a problem. The only thing you really need to know is that Chinese degrees aren't that valuable anywhere. People have tried to make that quite clear in the thread Lu referred to.

So even though you have to get in debt for an american degree, it might still be more beneficial in the long run. 

Many European universities have cheaper tuition than American ones though, while still being quite well respected in the rest of the world. Although it usually doesn't beat an american degree either. The cost of living in Europe might be the same as in the United States, tuition usually isn't.

[renzhe]

But like I said, the programs that I found in China are English-taught so I'm not sure how much Chinese I really need to know.

Yeah, but the English-taught engineering programmes are mostly money-grabs for gullible foreigners.

There is a handful of top universities in China where best Chinese students go, and where all the brightest Chinese professors and post-docs are, and teach them in Chinese. The biggest problem these bright students and professors in China have is that they publish in English and their English is not good enough.

I wouldn't take English-language programmes from third-tier universities seriously.

On the other hand, many universities in Europe teach courses in English, have excellent reputations, and are typically way cheaper than in the US. Tuition fees in Portugal are 1000 Euro per year, many parts of Germany do not even have tuition fees. And life is more similar to what you are used to.

China is awesome, but it's not a good match for what you're trying to do.

[rbb1996]

Kind of strange that America doesn't regard Chinese universities highly. Look at this for instance:

 

The ranking for Depaul:

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/5393.htm

 

The ranking for Sichuan University:

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/918.htm

 

I'm not sure how reliable this website is, but it seems to be the only one that contains most Chinese schools and American schools.

 

As for Europe, the cost would be higher for me. If I go to DePaul in the United States, I would commute to class and not live away from home. If I were to study in Europe, I would have to pay to live on my own. 

 

Quite frankly are there any universities that globally compare to American universities besides places like Cambridge and Oxford lol? When I say globally compare I mean the MEDIOCRE universities (although Cambridge and Oxford wouldn't be a good example then). What about Japan? Their culture and technology alone should give some kind of credit to the forwardness of their nation. Or will American universities continue to remain on the top until our lovely economy completely decimates?

[renzhe]

Kind of strange that America doesn't regard Chinese universities highly. Look at this for instance...

University rankings are typically based on scientific output, patents, high-impact publications, number of Nobel Prizes, etc.

They don't always correlate well with the quality of teaching.

Quite frankly are there any universities that globally compare to American universities besides places like Cambridge and Oxford lol?

Imperial College London, ETH Zurich, University of Tokyo, University College London, Heidelberg, EPFL Lausanne... There are plenty of incredibly prestigious universities around the world which are certainly in the same league as the best US universities.

That said, the US has quite a high concentration of top quality. I think that in most rankings, 50 universities from the top 100 are from the US. If you're going for the absolute best of the best, then the US is a good place to study.

On the other hand, I'd say that in Europe, the quality of teaching is more consistent, and there are not so many awful universities. I'd take an average German or Swedish university degree over an average US degree because a random German University is not that far off from Heidelberg in terms of teaching quality, but a random US university is quite a bit weaker than Harvard.

The point is that Chinese universities are places where Chinese professors teach Chinese students in Chinese, and this is how they are ranked. Going there for a degree taught in English is a bit like going to a really good car mechanic and ordering a steak. There is a high probability that the steak will not be terribly good, because this is not what they specialise in

[Lu]

That said, the US has quite a high concentration of top quality. I think that in most rankings, 50 universities from the top 100 are from the US. If you're going for the absolute best of the best, then the US is a good place to study.

On the other hand, I'd say that in Europe, the quality of teaching is more consistent, and there are not so many awful universities. I'd take an average German or Swedish university degree over an average US degree because a random German University is not that far off from Heidelberg in terms of teaching quality, but a random US university is quite a bit weaker than Harvard.

As a European with a European university education, I agree with this. In Holland for example, all 10+ universities we have are good to very good, and quite a number of classes are taught in English. (We have some not-so-good tertiary education too, but not at the universities.)

Perhaps you might want to invest some more time into this question of where to study. Costs of living are cheap in many parts of Europe, while even in countries where cost of living is higher, universities are often cheaper than in the US. Perhaps look into some programs offered in various countries, calculate and compare costs of living etc, and see what you find. Europe is more expensive than China, yes, but you generally also get a better education. I agree with Renzhe that China is great, but not for what you want.

[rbb1996]

Quite frankly I don't think that majors like Software Engineering require the BEST education. Especially considering how often new programming languages are developed, most of the subjects end up being pretty self-taught. For me, the degree is simply a way to get hired by companies and learn the fundamentals. But you said that rankings are based on: "scientific output, patents, high-impact publications, number of Nobel Prizes, etc." as opposed to actual quality of education. Well my question is, how do COMPANIES regard these ratings?  Do they focus on the quality of education or rankings (and if it's quality of education then how do they know since ratings don't necessarily reflect the quality of education according to you?).

 

Like I've stated before, the cost of living in Europe and tuition turns out to be higher than commuting to American universities. My primary concerns are how well companies in most modernized nations (Japan, England, and MOSTLY America) treat the degree and the total cost of getting an education from the given place. In simpler terms:

 

Quality of education < How well it's regarded in companions

International "experience" with education similar to the US < Cost 

Cost ≤ How well it's regarded in companies 

[Lu]

Well my question is, how do COMPANIES regard these ratings? Do they focus on the quality of education or rankings (and if it's quality of education then how do they know since ratings don't necessarily reflect the quality of education according to you?).

That is a good question which you should perhaps also ask elsewhere (somewhere with more potential employers). But if I were a company and I saw someone with a degree from China, I would be disappointed if the person with the degree didn't speak Chinese, as that would be the obvious thing I would expect. Apart from that, I think that most companies will prefer a degree they understand the value of over one they don't. A degree from a decent-but-not-great American university might get you further in the US than one from Tsinghua, even though Tsinghua might be the better university.

Like I've stated before, the cost of living in Europe and tuition turns out to be higher than commuting to American universities.

Not to to sound condescending, but you do realise that Europe is a big place with many countries? Tuition and cost of living in the UK are vastly different from in the Czech Republic, to name but two places. Did you check enough countries?

Your goals of getting a decent diploma in order to get a decent job are sound, but I think you'll need to spend money to achieve them, and if you're going to spend four years and a rather large amount of money, it's better to spend it on an education of decent quality, or you'll constantly feel you're wasting money and time.

Lastly, have you considerd online courses, instead of or in addition to whatever university you end up going to? I don't know much about it, but as I understand it you can often follow the classes for free and get a certificate afterwards if you pay a small amount of money (20-ish dollar iirc).

[rbb1996]

No you don't sound condescending. But you do realize that most of the countries in Europe are not English speaking? Meaning that your reasoning AGAINST China can be used to say things AGAINST Europe. I feel like I have browsed through all the English speaking European nations but the cost and hassle makes American universities seem more appealing.

 

I guess you guys did answer my initial question which was about how Chinese universities stack up against American ones. I got some pretty good answers. Thanks for all that helped! (:

[anonymoose]

Have you considered Russia? Not that I know anything about it, but presumably tuition at universities there is much cheaper than the USA, and the standard should be reasonable for technology-related subjects.

 

I can only say that, in my limited experience, English-taught courses in China are not very good. Most teachers have poor English, and since many of the students are of Chinese descent (from the US, Malaysia, etc.), the teachers often switch to speaking Chinese anyway.

[Simon_CH]

I have attended English courses in top Chinese universities and the level of teaching was pretty awful. Only some of the MBA-courses with older Chinese students with a few years professional experience were actually something that approached the level of teaching I was used to from Europe. 

 

Again, I think you came on here hoping to get your assumptions confirmed which didn't happen, but there are many people on here with first-hand experience, you'd be well advised to use, rather than ignore it. 

 

 

 

No you don't sound condescending. But you do realize that most of the countries in Europe are not English speaking? Meaning that your reasoning AGAINST China can be used to say things AGAINST Europe. I feel like I have browsed through all the English speaking European nations but the cost and hassle makes American universities seem more appealing.

 

You don't seem to know Europe very well. English is the first business language here, you will have no shortage of professors and students who are proficient enough to discourse and publish in English.

And that's just not the case in China, as for most Chinese learning English is very difficult, mastering it is next to impossible. While you will find many Chinese students and professors who speak pretty good English, extremely few know the language well enough to actually publish or teach in English. 

 

Oh, and there aren't many English speaking European Nations, so that should have been fairly short research. ;-)

[rbb1996]

Simon, you speak with such confidence about all the European and Chinese universities that it makes me wonder if you're a renowned bilingual student that travels through all of Europe and China and knows just how much easier it would be for someone who might be something like Lithuanian to master English, than it is for a Chinese to master English (after all, it is "next to impossible" for the Chinese, but completely possible for all other European nations) (OP Logic). Obviously since Chinese teachers have so much more difficulty than Europeans, I should go to any European nation with the cheapest degree since I will be confident that their English is superb. But regardless of the thorough criticisms that you gave to the amount of research that I did, you seemed to fail to recognize the comments that I made in this post. I said multiple times that due to the inconvenience, price, adaptation, and global recognition of European universities, America end up winning so far in my book. ;-)

 

As for Russia, I won't even bother researching their universities. I speak fairly fluently in Russian, but I never got around to learning how to read and write. From the people that my parents and I have talked to, Russian enforcement and native Russian people don't treat people very well who live in the United States, especially Eastern Europeans from the United States. I have a fairly Slavic face that could be pretty easily recognized among other Russians. That being said, the amount of corruption and false imprisonments is pretty ridiculous. I won't even begin to discuss the crime in that country and the political tensions with Ukraine. Oh, did I mention that there have been certain authors disappearing that have wrote negatively about Putin in Russia? Could be coincidence and rumors, but who knows. Although the United States is far from stable, they are able to create an illusory image of safety, stability, and security that Russia simply does not. 

 

Maybe I'm being close-minded here, but I think there must be a reason why the price tag on American education remains where it is; scratch that, gets higher every year. Even though other nations are catching up, and some are even ahead of the United States in certain areas, the general global population still regards the United States as the best in many areas and my guess is that education is one of them.

 

If I do decide to move to other nations like China, Japan, England, Germany, or the like, I will feel confident that my American degree will be worth something in one of those nations. As for a European or Chinese degree, I don't think that either of those degrees will be as well-regarded by potential employers as much as an American one.

 

Like I've said before, I appreciate all the help you all have given me. I hope someone will help you someday like you've helped me!

[rbb1996]

Simon, might I add that I wasn't hoping to get my assumptions confirmed. I had no presumptions before I came to this forum. I simply came to this forum to ask about the Chinese universities out of pure ignorance.

 

So far the only assumption that has been made (by you) so far is that I'm ignoring the advice being given.

 

I "ignore advice" but yet you ignored my previous posts...

 

Well, I do appreciate the effort to try and help me with your post, sorry it turned out to be very condescending and filled with hypocrisy. If only it was filled with more advice instead of useless criticism.

 

[Lu]

Rbb: Yes, most of the best universities in the world are American, we all agree on that. If you want the best possible education, and in English, the US should be your first choice. But I think that was the assumption we all started the thread on anyway.

You're right about the various political problems with Russia; most of these are also present in China. Of course, most of those issues don't really affect foreigners: oppression of minorities and jailing of human rights activists is bad, but not an immediate problem to someone from the US.

As to Europe, I think I mentioned I am actually European and yes, I do know that not all European countries are English-speaking. There was no need to tell me that. However, many universities in those non-English speaking countries offer a wide range of courses in English, and I'm confident that most professors' and students' English level in most of those courses is a lot higher than in China. (Still depending on the country, of course: you'll find more English speakers in Sweden than in Italy.) Of course, your options depend on what you're going to study, but if I were you I'd take a look at what's on offer. Some European universities are not very well-regarded, but I know that Delft, for example, is renowned in its field, and for sinology Leiden is literally world-famous. It can be more of a hassle to study abroad, that's true, so that is something you need to take into account.

[rbb1996]

Well American universities were initially my first choice since I live here. Although I did come here knowing that America has a lot of the most renowned universities, I also knew that DePaul was not one of the most renowned universities. What sparked my interest with China was the fact that it costed less than my community college; with an education that I initially thought was better than DePaul due to the rankings, but you guys told me otherwise so I'll take your word for it. If American schools (including DePaul) are unanimously better than any other foreign school even if the rating is better in the foreign schools (besides expensive exceptions or ones that require an amazing transcript), then I think the discussion is pretty much over.

 

I am pretty ignorant on the political problems regarding China (besides heavy censorship) so thanks for telling me, but in Russia the targeted groups I know for a fact ARE foreigners, especially those with Eastern European descent that live in the United States (not sure if jealousy or feeling of betrayal or both). From friends I've heard that they the police pelted snowballs at them, created unnecessary hassle in the airport with smiles on their faces, and I'm not even talking about how they wanted to arrest them for false accusations ("disrespect," "bringing drugs," etc). Pretty horrific stuff. If the law enforcement acts that way, then I'm not sure how to feel among the regular citizens (who often fit the alcohol-dependent stereotype).