冰霜

[Lu]

Is 冰霜 just frost (frozen water on the grass in the morning), or can it also mean something like 'ice cream'?

The sentence in the original reads: 雪没有积起来，也没有完全化，像在室温下放了一段时间的冰霜，湿漉漉，软塌塌的。我用脚踢着雪，很快就觉得袜尖有点潮。

There is an English translation, by the author herself or made in close cooperation with her. The translation is not always very close to the original, but is useful for checking. It has this sentence as: 'The snow, neither piled up nor melted, is soggy like sherbet left out at room temperature. I kick some snow and feel my sock get wet inside my shoe.'

'Frost left out at room temperature' doesn't make much sense to me (by definition, room temperature happens in a room, and frost usually doesn't), 'sherbet left out at room temperature' does. Except I can't find the meaning 'sherbet' for 冰霜 anywhere, and my language partner had never heard of it either.

Does anyone know how I might resolve this?

[Kamille]

You gave the answer to your own question: "The translation is not always very close to the original, but is useful for checking."

 

Anywhere I could look, I only found two translations for 冰霜 : frost and, in a metaphoric sense, moral integrity. Nothing about ice cream.

 

And you even gave the answer as to why they translated so all by yourself: "frost left out at room temperature" doesn't make much sense, while "sherbet left out at room temperature" does.

 

Don't thank me, you did all the job. Besides, the translator seems to master the English language as well as the art of translation. Chances are that either the author is a real badass either the translator and her are two different people.

[陳德聰]

Slush. Slushee. Snocone. Shaved ice dessert! Yum.

[Lu]

Kamille, thanks, I agree with your conclusion, but then the question remains why she wrote 冰霜 to begin with. It doesn't make sense to me in Chinese either.

陈德聪: is that what 冰霜 means, to your knowledge? Is this a local thing, something very old/new?

[Kamille]

Looks like 陳德聰 is talking about what Taiwanese call "tsua冰"

 

I always thought it had to have a name in proper mandarin. Now, can you call it 冰霜 or not, I don't know.

[Lu]

That's 刨冰 bàobīng. Ice in a cup mixed with syrup is 冰沙 bīngshā. I asked my language partner about this yesterday and learned some things about ice :-) But she had never heard of 冰霜 meaning icecream either.

[陳德聰]

冰霜 to me is anything slushy. Frost doesn't quite cut it, because to me, frost is a weird blanket-type thing that can't be singular. 霜 on the other hand, is really tiny 冰粒, singular or plural both fine. Also, Chinese people should be pretty familiar with desserts like 冰沙 or 雪花冰 or whatever, so the image of having it in a room is a bit more accessible than for most English speakers who probably would imagine that 冰霜 is just some random bundle of icey slush business you dragged in from outside.

I think the translation was fantastic, because aside from snocones and slushees, I couldn't think of anything that one could "leave at room temperature" in English that fit the bill, and neither snocones or slushees can evoke quite the same feeling.

[Nathan Mao]

Just checked with my Beijing-raised wife, she said her impression is like a snowcone, as well, but more shaved ice than crushed ice.  She thought a moment more, than said it was like ice cream, but without any milk or cream at all, so like a soft flavored ice.

 

Sounds like a strong confirmation of the word cloud in #3.

[Lu]

Many thanks! I think I'll perhaps translate it as 'waterijs' then, which is icecream on a stick that has no milk or cream in it (so perhaps not icecream... icicle?). Slushees and such are not very well-known here. But I'll think about it some more.

[roddy]

Waterijs sounds like what we call an ice lolly in the UK, or a popsicle in the US?

[Lu]

Ah yes, popsicle was the word I wasn't thinking of. IJslolly is used in Dutch as well.

And I just found that we do have a word for 刨冰: schaafijs. Not really a Dutch thing, it looks like we only have this word because we used to colonise people who eat such ice. Actually this might be a better translation too, closer to the original.

[陳德聰]

Do you have some liberty to play with the translation? I only felt sherbet was a good translation because it is something that melts, but also has a bit more of a poetic air to it. If you didn't even know you had the word schaafijs before, it seems like it might not really help the reader get the same feeling that they would if you used something familiar?

 

Would sorbetijs work?

[Lu]

The liberties allowed in translation... now don't make this a philosophical discussion :-) When in doubt I try to stick as close to the original as possible (and make good sentences of that), and I don't like translating 'slushy icy stuff' as 'sherbet', since it seems rather far removed (to me a sorbet is creamy ice on a nice plate in a restaurant). Of course, if the English translation that has the author's name on it uses it, it's a liberty I can take as well, and I certainly consult the English version when in doubt, but I try to make my own choices.

The word schaafijs is not widely used in Holland (simply because we don't eat it here often), but I'm pretty confident people will know what it is and realise what it does when left at room temperature. It's closer to 冰霜 than sherbet/sorbet is, and it feels more fitting in a story set in Shanghai.

But you're welcome to disagree. It's a bit like the balance between exoticising and domesticating, liberal and more literal translation, and I'm still not sure how far I should go in either direction.

[Kenny同志]

Seems like a specialised term (see here).

 

To be honest, I didn't know 冰霜 could be a kind of food.

[Kenny同志]

This page might help to confirm the validity of the term but as we can see, the usage is rather rare.

[Lu]

After some more searching, it seems that in English there is a distinction between sherbet (Dutch sorbet) and sorbet (Dutch waterijs => popsicle); and that the Dutch 'sorbet' does not only mean 'ice cream on a plate' but is also half-frozen fruit juice. Thanks Kenny for that page. Looks like perhaps I should consider 'sorbet' after all.

[Kenny同志]

You're welcome. : D