What's the deal with the Taiwanese adding 有 and 啦 everywhere?

[anonymoose]

Which is just another way of saying that adding the 有 is considered wrong, it's just that it's fine to be wrong in spoken Chinese and informal online communications.

[Kamille]

@sinosplice: That's exactly it!

@anonymoose: What is there that you don't understand about the word "regionalism"?

 

I'll add one last thing: saying 我有去过中国 is not exactly the same as saying 我去过中国. 有 carries a load of emphasis. Both structures (with and without 有) are commonly used in Taiwan, and adding 有 means adding emphasis to the fact that you have actually been to China.

In Beijing you would probably say something like "是的，我去過中國" or "我去過中國嘛". Or does it sound too feminine in the mainland to add this (嘛) particle too? (This question is serious).

[陳德聰]

I think it's likely that this use of 有 is a bit more widespread on the Mainland than people are making it seem (amongst younger speakers, at least). I have never lived or studied in Taiwan, and I hear it all the time from friends located in Shanghai, but hailing from all over.

I don't think I would say "我去过中国嘛" unless someone were talking about me never having gone to China. "I have so been to China!" Not necessarily feminine but a bit whiney?

[Kamille]

Well yeah, it does sound a bit whiney if you see it like that. But imagine this conversation: 我向你保證，台灣老人家普遍就是喜歡餵著蚊子坐在公園下棋，而且都會有一群老人圍著他們大聲的批評人家應該怎麼行動才對，我知道的，我去過台灣嘛（or 我有去過台灣），我看過他們做。Like when you want to persuade someone of something.

 

(You'll notice "大聲的批評" which is considered terribly wrong in the mainland (it should be 大聲地批評 there) but actually is the standard in Taiwan.)

[Lanchong]

In Beijing you would probably say something like "是的，我去過中國" or "我去過中國嘛". Or does it sound too feminine in the mainland to add this (嘛) particle too? (This question is serious).

How about 「我是去過中國」as the Mainland equivalent?

[Kamille]

Exactly, 我是去過中國 sounds quite fine. This structure is also used in Taiwan by the way. 

[Nathan Mao]

"我是去過中國" with a "的" (i.e., 我是去過中國的) sounds like Shanghai mandarin to me.

[Guest realmayo]

Is this not the normal use of either 是...的 or 是... to emphasise the verb that follows the 是 ?

[roddy]

On Kamille's comment on emphasis:

"I'll add one last thing: saying 我有去过中国 is not exactly the same as saying 我去过中国. 有 carries a load of emphasis. Both structures (with and without 有) are commonly used in Taiwan, and adding 有 means adding emphasis to the fact that you have actually been to China."

 

Can we think of this as being parallel to the use of 'do' in English.

But I do love you! vs But I love you!

I told her when to come vs I did tell her when to come. 

[Nathan Mao]

@realmayo
In my understanding, 我是。。。的 is perfectly fine and normal if you want to emphasize that you are that kind of person, but the Shanghai Southern folk kind of take it to an extreme.

It is almost exactly analogous to saying, "I am the one who went to China before" instead of just, "I went to China before".

Consider how often you would say, in a English:
I am the one who is angry
I am the one who is sleepy
I am the one who knocks

Perfectly fine when you need to emphasize that point, but notable when you use that emphasis pattern when there is no need to emphasize.

The Shanghai-area use of 我是。。。的 is kind of like that. However, it has become the norm there so it doesn't feel like an unnecessary emphasis to the people who regularly use it.

[Kamille]

Looks like "do" is a good translation too, indeed.

[Guest realmayo]

Nathan -- thanks, interesting to read that. I'd previously thought the 是。。。的 was fairly normal and not really for emphasis. But then in the forums and in textbooks I read that it was for emphasis, so I figured I'd misunderstood. But I'd picked it up from talking to people -- so maybe it's a regional thing that is broader than Shanghai? Or even north vs south. Something like 她是昨天来的 doesn't actually sound emphatic to my ears.

[Nathan Mao]

@realmayo
Checked w/ my wife, and you're right: it is a Southern thing, not necessarily just Shanghai.

I think I got that impression from when she pointed out a Shanghai resident using that pattern on a dating show.

In any case, it has clearly gotten to the point where it is NOT for emphasis any more in large swaths of the population (if, in fact, it ever was an emphasis). For me, tho, I can't account for the extra 是 and 的 without including the emphasis: "I'm one who..." Or "I am a ____ person." That was the whole point of a stative verb in the first place, I thought: you don't need the "is/am"!!!

But I'm not going to insist all of southern China and Taiwan change to suit my understanding.

[Guest realmayo]

Thanks for checking! I remember being a bit miffed to learn that I was using this wrong, now I find out that yes while it's incorrect putonghua my mistake is for the right reasons, as it were.

I wonder what other southern traits I possess.

 

But I'm not going to insist all of southern China and Taiwan change to suit my understanding.

  In the same generous spirit, I won't insist on wholesale changes to putonghua either.

[陳德聰]

It's not always emphatic. 是... 的 is also totally normal in cases when you're describing the manner of something. It has a focus function.