Relationships and "insults" in Chinese culture

[pinkskybluesky]

Writing this for the second time because it didn't post.... -.-

 

I am desperately searching for some insight into this.

My boyfriend is Chinese. We met in China and are now in a long distance relationship.

We speak every day and sometimes he asks me to send photos of myself, which I do, and he does the same.

In many ways he is a very sweet guy, but sometimes he says things like "you do not look good".

As someone who is very self concious, this really affects me. I have tried talking to him about it but he doesn't not seem to understand why it upsets me... he will just say "I don't care if you look bad, I love you".

Which I can understand. Everyone has days where they don't look so good.

But I just can't get used to my boyfriend telling me this.

 

He has also called me fat even though, by western standards, I am generally called "slim" or even "skinny".

 

 

I am assuming these are just cultural differences I will have to get used to, but it is quite difficult. I'm just wondering if someone could shed some light on this? Have you experienced something like this?

 

And how should I approach the issue?

[Shelley]

I don't care what the cultural differences might be, this is no way for some one who supposedly cares for you to talk to you.

 

I would take a firm stand and insist that he stops putting you down.

 

Or swing things around, tell him he looks bad and fat with spots and see how he feels.

 

This is the thin edge of the wedge to mental cruelty and control.

 

Sounds heavy, but if it upsets you, you should not stand for it.

 

I would ignore his bad comments, if he notices that it doesn't bother you he may stop because it isn't getting to you.

 

Or tell him outright, stop. It all depends on a lot of things, I am sure we do not have the whole picture in your short post.

 

Be strong and remember if you let him get away with it he won't stop.

[Xuesheng1937]

I agree with Shelley. Technically, even if you assume it is a cultural difference, if it bothers, it doesn't matter what the reason is, you shouldn't stand for it. Being in a relationship is to bring happiness to your life, he should be lucky to have you, not the other way around.

[Demonic_Duck]

Disagree with Shelley. There is a definite cultural difference here - Chinese people are much more willing to bring up other people's personal appearance, even if it's in a somewhat negative way (especially if you view "fat" as negative). As such, it's not the "thin edge of the wedge to mental cruelty and control". It's a Chinese guy being insensitive to cultural differences.

With that said, he should be able to respect your wishes if he cares about you, so make it very clear to him that this behaviour is considered insulting in western cultures and that it makes you feel shitty.

[abcdefg]

I'm in Demonic_Duck's camp on this issue.

 

When meeting good friends who I haven't seen in a long time, I often get "Oh, you have gotten fat and old since last year."  Not exactly what I was hoping to hear.

 

Flattery about personal appearance is not the norm in my experience, at least not from good friends. Flattery from very casual acquaintances about Chinese language ability, by contrast, is pretty routine, not at all the exception.

 

"Ni hao."

"Oh, your Chinese is so wonderful!"

[xuefang]

I agree with others, that cultural difference or not, you're boyfriend shouldn't be making you feel bad or insecure. I'm married to a Cantonese man and at first he mentioned my weigth or that I should lose weigth, but as I told him that it's very rude to say those things in my home country and they make me feel extremely bad, he has learned to understand it. He sometimes does joke about my appearance, but in a loving way and I have grown to accept that.

 

You don't have to accept things that make you very upset just because there are cultural differences between you. In an international relationship, you both should make compromises and efforts to learn the other culture. But in the end if you find being constantly upset or sad of something your boyfriend/girlfriend does, no matter personal or cultural reasons, it's your decision if you want to stay in the relationship.

 

So tell your boyfriend again that it upsets you and why. Make sure he understands what you want and hopefully he notices that it's better for both of you to make you happy, not upset.

[Nathan Mao]

I've heard any number of Chinese people complain that Westerners (in general, and Americans in specific) are so fake/superficial, mainly because we are so sensitive to comments about weight, attractiveness, intelligence, etc.  To them, if it is obvious to anyone looking, then being "polite" about it is lying and 虚伪.

But then, I've noticed these same Chinese people refusing to tell the truth when asked to do something. To me, it seemed just as 虚伪, just a different aspect of social life.

 

So I have concluded that all cultures have their social lubricants, their little white lies told to save face.  The trick is to learn where the ego/face is involved, and know that is where you have to be sensitive.

 

Look, most romantic relationships fail.  The modern record of marriage is close to a 50% divorce rate, and most people date at least 2-3 people before getting married, right?

 

These relationships fail even when the people come from the same cultures, the same towns, have the same values, are approximately the same age, etc.  Just the fact that you have two different people who don't always want the same thing or communicate well about what they want makes a relationship hard to sustain.

 

Now add in all the cultural pitfalls of trying to cross cultures.  It can be extremely difficult, and you have to be extremely committed, and willing to go through more pain and hassle to have a successful relationship.

 

A friend of mine once said that he was stunned when his girlfriend (3 years younger) didn't remember the same cartoon that was his favorite as a child. He felt that nostalgia gap was quite possibly insurmountable.

 

When pursuing a relationship with someone of a different culture, where the very language form is different, you have to be flexible, and you pretty much have to drop all your assumptions and accept the person as they are.  You very nearly won't have anything in common.

 

Seeking a relationship with someone from a culture as different from the English-speaking world as China pretty much must be based on a zest for novelty, a zeal for exploring differences.  If not, then one or the other of you is pretty much always going to be a social cripple in the other one's world.

 

So think about what you really want, and why it is you are even attracted to him.  If you are truly attracted to who he is, then you need to recognize that this is the way he thinks and expresses himself.  This is who he is.

 

Put another way: you need to make cultural translations in your head as much as you need language translations.  It is quite possible that to him, he may have been trying to express that he loves you for your personality, and not for your looks, so you don't have to worry about him seeking a 小三儿/二奶 when you get older.

Plus, "fat" = "healthy" in Chinese society (to a certain point).  Losing weight is generally considered to be unhealthy.

(Sort of.  Chinese seem to be kind of schizophrenic about weight.  My wife has put on 40 pounds in 8 years.  Her family thinks it is healthy. We all agree (even herself) that she was originally way too thin. But she is disconcerted by her weight gain. Part of her distress is she still feels like losing weight is unhealthy, or the result of anguish)

 

In a cross-cultural relationship, you really need to increase your cultural flexibility. Try to understand the thought behind the statement, rather than reacting to it as if someone in your society said it.  After all, he was raised his whole life in a society where it is okay to say, "You look bad" and "You are a little fat".

[pinkskybluesky]

Thanks guys, really helpful info - I didn't really know who else I could ask about it.

Anyone else?

[gato]

In many ways he is a very sweet guy, but sometimes he says things like "you do not look good".

 

See if you can ask him how he would say the same thing in Chinese.   "You do not look good" could mean that he's concerned about your health, or he literally means that you look less than pretty, depending on what he means.   It is possible that he's expressing concern about your health and just isn't using idiomatically correct English.  

[Shelley]

@Demonic_Duck i agree there are cultural differences but what i meant was that this shouldn't be used as an excuse to upset someone.

 

I may have come across a bit harsh, but I wanted to emphasis that  the OP shouldn't put up with something that obviously upset the her enough to join a Chinese forum and ask for help.

[陳德聰]

My boyfriend used to call me a pig all the time. He said that pigs are cute. I explained that I think pigs are gross, and generally use them as a comparison between people and something fat and dirty that wallows in the mud. So he asked me what animals I think are cute, and now he calls me a turtle, which sometimes makes me question why he must absolutely call me some sort of animal, but oh well. Point is, the two of you should be able to come to an agreement on what is okay to say and what is not, through communication. Language barrier definitely makes that hard, so hopefully you can both use the same language at a high enough level.

[pinkskybluesky]

 

See if you can ask him how he would say the same thing in Chinese.   "You do not look good" could mean that he's concerned about your health, or he literally means that you look less than pretty, depending on what he means.   It is possible that he's expressing concern about your health and just isn't using idiomatically correct English.

 

Yeah, that did occur to me too... He does seem to worry a lot if I am not well.

He knows that I felt kind of awful after he said that to me, so I am hoping he has realised and won't say it again... If he does, I will ask him about how he would say it in Chinese.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Whenever my Thai friends see me - we don't see each other too often - they will exclaim "you have gotten FAT!". The westerners present will laugh uncomfortably, and the Thai will be like "what? have I done anything wrong?".

 

I'm okay with my weight, although a pound less wouldn't hurt, so I don't mind. I remember one situation though where I wanted to die on the spot, and where I felt hurt for days, and that was when someone yelled this when my (now ex) boyfriend was present, and he (the now-ex) always had an eye on other girls. So I was thinking, oh god, they are right, but do they HAVE to stress my disadvantages in front of him?

[fabiothebest]

Strange that your bf told you are fat if you are slim..From what I've seen, Chinese people prefer a bit fat rather than skinny..hmm or maybe that refer just to males a bit fat..maybe girls should be slim also for them, anyway you said you are, so I don't see why he tells you that you are fat..I'm slim/normal and my gf told me I'm skinny (which is not true) and she wanted me to be fatter..then since my last trip to China I got a bit fatter (still fine though) maybe because I ate much and most of food is oily there..I told her I got a bit fatter and I wanna lose just a couple of kg (I'm still not fat), then she said: no don't lose, don't lose. I want you to be fat Then when she sees pictures of guys with 6 pack online, she drools and tells me she'd like that i have 6 pack..so she would like me both fatter and with 6 packs..this is impossible to achieve Anyway I'm fine like I am, I'll just keep myself in good shape.

[roddy]

Do this: 

 

Him: Hey hon, got any more pics for me?

You: After you said the last ones looked fat? No chance...

Him: [fill in stream of increasingly desperate compliments here]

 

What are the language issues here? Maybe his English is weak and 'you don't look good' means 'this photo does not do you justice'. 

[Lu]

On one hand, sure, cultural issues, and sometimes one says things in their second language that wouldn't get past their own politeness filter in their first language because the filter is not working that well.

On the other hand, this can very well be the thin end of that wedge. He might not even mean it, but if he's already thinking, both to you and to himself, that he doesn't find you beautiful, that is not a good sign.

Basically, you need to explain to him that he needs to stop doing this without further ado, simply because it makes you feel bad. If he does, good, relationship can continue as planned. If he doesn't, that looks like the thin wedge.

My last Chinese boyfriend liked calling me stupid. I hated that. He reasoned that in Chinese relationships people call each other 傻瓜 all the time, doesn't mean anything, it's actually affectionate, etc. Yeah, no. I hated it, he should have stopped it. We broke up, not solely for that of course, but it was part of a larger pattern that was very unhealthy. He made all kinds of remarks that brought me down, basically. I hope that is not the case with your boyfriend, but if it is, I hope you find out sooner rather than later and act accordingly.

[陳德聰]

Oh speaking of 傻, my guy used to translate it and call me "stupid" in English a lot. Told him "silly" was a better translation, so now he can say it all the time and I give zero pieces of excrement because he sounds like an idiot bahaha sweet revenge.

[Nathan Mao]

Some people insist that words aren't important, it is the actions that matter...they would rather be called fat/ugly/stupid by someone who remains faithful and looks after their needs than someone who flatters and says all the right things but cheats and ignores.

Sure, better to have someone who says the right things AND does the right things, both. But what if that isn't an option? Which is more important: actions or words? But then, speaking itself is an action, albeit one with intangible results...

...changing the way a person speaks, the word choice they use, is such a little thing, so it should be easy to change, right? But if it is little/easy, then how can you know a change is truly heartfelt?

This is a truly complex issue. I don't have an answer but I hope I've helped you think about it at a deeper level. Good luck to you with however you decide to proceed.

[xuefang]

My husband calls me 傻瓜 all the time! As we speak Chinese 80% of the time, he hasn't translated that to English or any other language.

 

陈德聪， you're boyfriend seems to be quite 听话, always changing his cute nicknames for you when you ask. Sounds like a keeper!

[Lu]

Sure, better to have someone who says the right things AND does the right things, both. But what if that isn't an option? Which is more important: actions or words? But then, speaking itself is an action, albeit one with intangible results...

I quite agree, speaking is an action. And I think it's perfectly reasonable to hold out for someone who doesn't lie & cheat and also doesn't insult and upset you. There are actually a lot of people who manage to clear that (pretty low) bar. And if you can't find one, you always have the option of remaining single.

Not to say that everyone who calls their lover a stupid pig is therefore no good as a partner, it depends on the relationship, how the partner handles it, etc. Regardless, one should treat one's partner right. Not insult them, not ignore them, not cheat on them, and listen when they say something upsets them. It's not rocket science.