Relationships and "insults" in Chinese culture

[Demonic_Duck]

My last Chinese boyfriend liked calling me stupid. I hated that. He reasoned that in Chinese relationships people call each other 傻瓜 all the time, doesn't mean anything, it's actually affectionate, etc.

My ex-girlfriend called me "傻逼" all the time - not as a nickname, more as a description (incidentally the literal translation of "傻逼" as "stupid c***" is inaccurate - it's considered fairly inoffensive amongst good friends, at least of the younger generation). The nickname was "臭臭" ("stinky"), which I think is a rather common thing for Chinese girls to call their boyfriends, as I also heard my housemate calling her boyfriend that.

 

Said ex-girlfriend also once told me she thought I was "average looking", but it was OK because she was also average looking. When I responded by saying I thought she was very attractive, she reprimanded me for flattering her (I wasn't, of course).

 

Other examples of related cultural differences: I once saw a Chinese guy greet a female friend he hadn't seen in a long time with "you're so much fatter than I remembered!" She was easilly large enough that she could quite likely have been sensitive about her weight. More recently, I saw the mother of the 8-year-old girl I teach on weekends tease her about how dark her skin was (having darker skin is considered undesirable in China - instead of getting complimented about your nice tan, you get complimented about how white you are). The girl obviously wasn't too happy about it, so I told her that dark skin is considered beautiful where I come from and to ignore her mum, haha.

[rezaf]

My wife makes all kinds of mean comments about my appearance. At first I wasn't used to it but after sometime I started to take revenge by making mean comments about her appearance. I realized that while her comments wouldn't affect me at all, my comments would deeply affect her. For example "You've got fat" or "你脸肿了” would mean weeks of going on diet and making our lives more miserable. I don't have any idea how it goes for Chinese men but if you have a Chinese wife it's better not to tell them these things and ignore their comments.

[Nathan Mao]

But *did* the lover call them a stupid pig? Maybe it was actually the intended equivalent of "cute silly goose"...

It's the cultural assumption about the meanings of the words that makes the difference, no?

It is understandable that disregarding sensitive issues can be seen as insufficiently caring, but attempting to minimize sensitivity is also a way to show love.

A good principle is to never demand someone else make a change you are not willing to make yourself. The problem here is that someone involved needs to weaken, erase, or change the emotional connection they've had all their lives to specific words. It seems to be just as easy/difficult for the hearer to change cultural assumptions as the speaker, no?

Is it always the speaker who should change? Or is it always the male who should change? In a cross-cultural relationship, is it always the non-Westerner who should change? Or is it always the Westerner who should change? Or should you take turns changing?

[shrug]

Obviously, every couple will develop their own answers to these and other questions.

[gato]

Some of this might be a language issue. 傻瓜 has a more affectionate tone than 傻 alone, for example. It's like the difference between dummy and dumb.

And for the OP, 胖 (could be either translated as "gained weight" or "chubby", depending on the context) is more affectionate than 很胖 or 肥 (fat).

Misunderstanding is more apt to happen when one is speaking or listening in a foreign language -- it already happens often enough when men and women of the same culture speak to one another.

[Lu]

Is it always the speaker who should change? Or is it always the male who should change? In a cross-cultural relationship, is it always the non-Westerner who should change? Or is it always the Westerner who should change? Or should you take turns changing?

The person who is less affected and/or the person who cares the least should change. If calling me 'stupid' makes me feel bad while you just see it as one possible silly nickname, then you need to come up with a different silly nickname. If you've always looked forward to the day your significant other is significant enough for you to call her 老婆 but I find it a bit weird that you call me that, I need to get over it.

[陳德聰]

Cannot agree more with #25. This is my exact philosophy.

[yhe2006]

 

See if you can ask him how he would say the same thing in Chinese.   "You do not look good" could mean that he's concerned about your health, or he literally means that you look less than pretty, depending on what he means.   It is possible that he's expressing concern about your health and just isn't using idiomatically correct English

I agree. What he may mean to say is "you don't look well" (instead of good) to mean you don't look healthy.

[renzhe]

I don't know, folks...

The Chinese can be blunt about some things, but I don't know any Chinese girls who like being told by their boyfriends that they look bad or that they are fat. They are just as sensitive about it as anyone else, really.

It is possible that there is cultural misunderstanding on both sides. If his comments bother you, then you should find a way to discuss that stuff and resolve it. Either way, being uncomfortable in a relationship will not lead to anything good in the long run.

[Simon_CH]

I think Chinese often voice their observations about someone's experience with little to no ulterior motive, they don't mean to flatter (too much) or hurt someone, but rather just blurt out what they see. 

 

I have been told or overheard countless countless times by people of all ages that I'm handsome in a business meeting, in a social setting, in public by strangers, with no apparent reason than to say what they think or see. 

I've also been told that I have impurities in my skin, so I should therefore eat healther, less, more or that my new haircut makes me look "insert any of the previous adjectives". 

 

In my humble opinion this is because looks are considered more objective, and therefore apt for descriptive words than actions or behavior which depends on relationship, and therefore diplomacy, politics. 

[Haishan]

I had a Chinese teacher who told us an American will think her boyfriend is cute just because he's her boyfriend. She said she loves her boyfriend but that she has no disillusions about him being cute and it's okay. We were shocked to hear that because even if he was below average, there must be something cute and lovable about everyone and we would focus on that and ignore the rest. 

Chinese tend to not show love verbally and instead show love through action. I wonder if this means they're not looking to be validated through complimentary words about their appearance just like they're less likely to say "I love you." 

I've also noticed that my Chinese husband will say negative things in an attempt to motivate me to get better/ give feedback on how I'm doing. He will tell me directly that the dinner I've just made is flavorless/ not good. And when I make something he likes, he raves about it, probably in an attempt to get me to make it again. 

Perhaps he thinks it doesn't make sense to tell you you are gorgeous when he feels he should instead motivate you to lose 10lbs so you'll look so much better. 

Either way, anytime you tell your significant other that he or she is hurting you and that person is unwilling to explore behavior changes which will make you feel loved, it's a very bad sign. 

[MoTzu]

Westerners have a habbit of lying to the people they love. If you love someone you'll lie and tell them they look good when really that might not be the truth you just don't want to hurt your feelings. The classic example is do these jeans make my arse look big, most western boyfriends/husbands will say no whether it does or not. As someone who teaches primary school in China I can tell you from ages 5+ they learn fat, ugly, stupid, etc as very frequently used every day words which don't hold the same offensive connotations they do back home, there is no malice meant. A lot of bigger female american and brittish english teachers here can't hack being called fat or ugly by their students and eventually leave. My trainer here is a larger lady and she is called fat by her students on a daily basis, at first I thought they were being rude but after getting to know her students the kids love her to death and mean nothing by it.

[Lu]

If you love someone to death, and you know that doing X upsets them, then why not stop doing X? And if you're learning English, you also need to learn a bit of American/English/whatever culture, including the fact that in those cultures it's consider extremely rude to point out other people's flaws all the time.

I can't speak for all couples, but often when you're with someone, that person becomes more and more beautiful/handsome the longer you know them, so that telling them they're handsome/beautiful is not a lie at all but a subjective opinion that they might like to hear. Plenty of people are beautiful in the eyes of their partner (not to mention their parents) whether or not they have movie star looks.

Also I wonder whether those kids don't develop complexes from being told they're stupid, ugly etc all day. I wonder if anyone has researched that.

[MoTzu]

Being sensative about your flaws is a culture thing.

In my country (Australia) it's normal to point out peoples flaws, joke about them, and if the person is a friend of yours pick on them about it.

They don't take offence and we don't mean anything by it, in our culture we don't believe in babying people to make them feel better about themselves.

We're taught from a young age that you can never give offence, only take it. It's up to you to choose whether you are offended by something, it's not up to the person saying it. If the person has no malice intended, and you know they meant none, yet you still take offence (I'm talking about people in general not the op or anyone in this thread) then perhaps you have some issues with yourself that you need to deal with and a real friend/partner would help you work through them not tip toe on egg shells and try not to bring up a subject that may make you feel bad. These are purely my opinions, I'm not trying to say one way of looking at it is more correct than the other, I just come from a culture where if you have a fat friend, and you are on their case about being fat, they will respect you for being honest. And the opposite is true if you were to become weird about using the word fat around them and start using "larger" or "bigger" they would think you kind of gutless. In some cultures being fat means you're from money and can afford to eat more than you need to, what you consider a personal flaw and have some kind of complex about may to other people be considered an asset. Context is everything

[MoTzu]

To give an example one of my best friends back home had difficulty during child birth and the doctors had to help the birth using some kind of clamp to turn him around. The doctor botched it and broke his arm. His arm never fully developed and he has one baby sized arm that he can't fully straighted and one normal arm. He's now in his early 30s and people still call him chicken wing. He doesn't have a complex about it, he doesn't see a shrink about it, he lives a full and completely normal life. He's married with kids and has self confidence that I'm envious of sometimes. He can't stand people who will get all weird if the arm comes up in conversation and they try to avoid using offensive words or change the subject, he says he doesn't trust them.

[Shelley]

I have a friend who was a victim of thalidomide. He would make a point of cracking jokes about his small arms, he would say things like don't worry I'm (h)armless, would you like to shake my hand? and then he would proffer his hand and laugh as people didn't know where to put themselves.

 

He also said things like: the answer to your unasked question is with difficulty ( the question being about personal hygiene ).

 

If you had not met him before this could be quite intimidating.

 

He philosophy was that it broke the ice and helped people overcome their shyness about talking about it.

 

His friends would play jokes on him by putting his wallet in his back pocket in the pub, he would react with mock horror and anger. There was loads of laughter all round.

 

I feel this is a good way to deal this sort of thing. get out in the open, learn to live with it and get on with life.

[Ruben von Zwack]

I enjoyed reading those last examples, and I agree it seems much healthier than pretending not to notice - but I wonder if that is really the same thing as telling your significant other "man, you look horrible today" or "you're so fat".

[Shelley]

The truth doesn't have to be ugly. "man , you look horrible today" could just as easily be "you don't look your usual cheery self today, something up?"

 

The "you look fat" is very direct, but still if you are in strong relationship "looks like you could do with swapping a few burgers for salads for a while" might go down okay.

 

Its all down to how you say it as well as what.

[MPhillips]

Within a large range of standard deviations, how someone looks barely rises to the level of my consciousness--unless you're looking for someone to have sex with I don't even know why you'd care.

[Simon_CH]

I think it all comes down to whether someone wants to hear it or not. Of course in most cultures (England & US included) you may call your friend a fat bastard and it's all just good banter. But if someone really is sensitive about something then it's just bad manners to point that out, China and Australia included.

 

I am sure I could offend just about anyone with a pointed observation, everyone has a weakness they don't like to hear about. Try telling your Chinese mother-in-law she's fat and ugly and see how she reacts even if it's an accurate description...