Vocabularly learning method

[ilovelamp]

Hi all, I'm new to this site, and this is my first post!

 

I've just started learning Mandarin because of my Taiwanese partner, and I've found this site extremely useful in terms of the resources recommended/provided and interesting discussions. Thanks

 

I just have a quick question, and I'm interested to hear peoples' ideas:

 

I'm learning vocabulary using supermemo, which I was very successful with in learning German. If you haven't used it, it's a sort of "flashcard" memory program - and I use it simply with a word in Language 1 as the question and the Language 2 translation as the answer. So, I was wondering, is it at all relevant which language comes first? ie. learning vocabulary from Mandarin to English, or the other way around?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks again

[imron]

Any thoughts?

Switch to Anki from Super Memo.  Super Memo is one of two programs I refuse to use because the UI is just too awful (Wenlin is the other).  If you have the budget, Pleco is even better because it's designed specifically for Chinese learners.

 

In answer to your question, probably both are going to be useful, although it will probably even more useful to work on full sentences rather than individual vocab items.  Considering your focus will be on Mandarin as spoken in Taiwan, you might consider the Glossika materials.

[ilovelamp]

 

Switch to Anki from Super Memo

I'm definitely going to look into this.. I didn't even know there were other applications like supermemo .

 

I planned on moving on to full sentences as soon as I'm comfortable with pronunciation/tones. Would it be a good idea just to jump straight into them??

[imron]

If you are serious about learning Chinese (e.g. are planning on learning it to a high level and are prepared to be spending years on the task) I think it's worth spending a couple of weeks just on pronunciation and tones.  It will make everything else easier down the track.  Don't worry too much about learning words so much (though you can a little bit if you like), just practice the sounds in isolation.

 

Many beginners make the mistake of seeing Mandarin syllables as sound + tone, but really you need to treat them as a single unit.  You need to get to the point where different tones are as easily distinguishable to you as different vowels.

 

For example, you wouldn't think of English as having a single b*t sound with 5 vowels making:

b*t+a

b*t+e

b*t+i

b*t+o and

b*t+u. 

 

That's just far too complicated.  Instead, you would rightly think of it as 5 sounds bat, bet, bit, bot, but.

 

Chinese is the same, you shouldn't think of it as

 

ma+1st tone

ma+2nd tone

ma+3rd tone and

ma+4th tone

 

That's just complicating things for yourself later (and setting you up to have bad pronunciation), rather you should see them as mā má mǎ mà - 4 completely different sounds.

 

Spend time learning to hear the difference and being able to produce the difference and it will pay off hugely as you get better.  Make sure to record yourself to check, and don't be afraid to ask for feedback here on the forums - no-one will make fun of you here for having bad pronunciation - we've all been there and know what it's like.

 

You don't need perfect pronunciation before moving on, but definitely have the basics down pat.

 

I don't see a problem going straight to sentences after that, presuming you start out with small ones and gradually build yourself up.  The benefit of using sentences is that (assuming the sentences are correct) it breaks you out of the habit of piecing sentences together that use Chinese vocabulary but English grammar.

[ilovelamp]

I am definitely serious, and motivated. I'll take your advice and spend more time on pronunciation.

 

You need to get to the point where different tones are as easily distinguishable to you as different vowels.

This part sounds scary. I'll do my best though.

 

I guess learning whole sentences would stop me sounding like a robot after just pieceing a bunch of individual words together, and definitely makes a lot of sense - so ill do that, but I'll still go strong with individual vocab words too.

 

Do you use a flashcard system for vocabulary? If so, which language did you use for the "question"?

[imron]

It's not scary, just realise that having the same letters in English doesn't mean anything when you are speaking Chinese, and don't make the mistake of splitting tones from the sound learn them as a single unit.

For flashcards, personally I use pleco, and have two main setups, one with Chinese on both the back and front, which is not really practical for beginners, and one with pronunciation only (pinyin) on the front an Chinese word an meaning on the back.

[hedwards]

@imron, I found an Anki deck yesterday for practicing tones. Unfortunately, you have to reverse the order because it seems to be oriented towards production and one really should work on recognition first. If you can't recognize them the likelihood of reliably producing them is greatly reduced. The deck is "Mandarin Chinese Tone Practice" and the deck is based upon the MP3s that Sinosplice created.

 

http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2008/01/21/seeing-the-tones-of-mandarin-chinese-with-praat

 

As far as direction goes, I don't believe that it's possible to have flash cards with just pinyin on the front side without at least characters to represent which word it is. This is one reason why I'm so opposed to the notion of a word being a sound because it fails hard with regard to Chinese. Sitting there having a teacher quiz me about the meaning of a word and having no idea which possible meaning was the one she was looking for was not fun.

[Nathan Mao]

@ilovelamp

 

 

This part sounds scary.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[imron]

As far as direction goes, I don't believe that it's possible to have flash cards with just pinyin on the front side

Works just fine for me.  You just have to be sure you are doing it for words and not just single characters though.  In my experience there is very little collision between words.

[hedwards]

That might be it, I was trying that early on and at this point, I don't see much point in not having the characters there as that's an additional impression every time I review the card.

[ilovelamp]

Do you have audio clips with your flash cards to check pronunciation? if so, is it easy to do this with that software?

[hedwards]

If you want to check your pronunciation, then you'll want to follow that link I included earlier. It's perhaps a bit heavy handed, but it's difficult to argue with the computer about whether or not you're making the right sound. The main issue I have with it is that it's a woman, IIRC, and so I can't replicate the pitch exactly, I just have to match the shape of the graph.

 

http://www.sinosplice.com/learn-chinese/tone-pair-drills

 

I use that Anki Deck primarily for the purpose of training my ear. Training the ear is pretty much the first step IMHO as the ability to hear the tones properly enables you to identify when you're making them correctly. This link should get you to the right deck. The big thing is that you'll want to flip the cards so that you're getting the audio first and the answer second. That way you can start to train your ears.

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1294321695

[imron]

Do you have audio clips with your flash cards to check pronunciation?

Pleco has a paid add-on that contains audio for tens of thousands of words with both male and female speakers.  It's trivial to add sound to each card either as the front or the back and to play it as needed.

 

I don't see much point in not having the characters there as that's an additional impression every time I review the card.

For me, it's to practice production which you can't do if the character is there.  That being said, I have multiple profiles in Pleco which I use in combination, each with a different purpose and also have one with just the character on the front.  I've talked about my Pleco setup here.

[ilovelamp]

wow, it looks like there is a lot for me to look into

 

I'm assuming you guys are native english speakers.. how long have you been studying Mandarin?, and how do you think you compare to a native Mandarin speaker? -- i think it's a good idea if i set myself reasonable goals