URGENT: Z visa denied by Chinese Embassy!

[Stefan91]

Z visa application denied by embassy

I will use A B C to highlight the companies. Please don't get confused

I worked last year in China with a visa infringement.
Company A: unlicened school
Company B: sponsor of the Z visa (it seems)
Company C : Agency

On my UK passport. F visa > Z visa > Z visa residence permit > 10 day exit visa
*Was working in Company A with a work visa for Company B, prepared for by Company C 
*(I have never met Company B) 
* Company C introduced me to Company A to me.
* Company A and C aren't licensed to hire foreigners
* Company B paid C my salary which was then paid to me

Policeman came to the unlicensed school and i was questioned 2 or 3 occasions by police.

I was told i was working illegally and my agency was illegal.
COmpany C got fined 10000yuan, so did A. Company C paid my fine of 5000.
5 Days in Daxing Detention, my work visa was cancelled, and given a 10 day exit visa, i wasn't deported and told many times I can come back. Not banned.
I left before the 10 days to avoid deportation.

Went back to home country, applied a NZ passport (Im born in NZ but with dual nationality). Yes I know passports are linked.

4-5 months later

Found a new school who can hire foreigners, they prepared work visa documents. for my NZ PASSPORT
* Employment License stamped by Labour Bureau and SAFEA (Says i'm a resident of HK <which i'm not> but my NZ passport number written)
* Z visa invitation letter from Ministry of Foreign Affairs saying to apply work visa in New Zealand.

Went to the embassy to apply an F visa first but got denied for no reason 
When I came to apply for my Z visa i was asked about the many visa in my UK passport, the visa official asked me to write a statement of why i may been refused last time.

She took a copy of the Z visa letter, SAFEA work permit, my statement and sent it to "Beijing" (What is Beijing? ) The psb?... 

1 working day later she said "They recieved the application result from Beijng and my Z visa was denied"

I don't quite understand why my Z visa was denied if i was already pre-approved with all the neccessary documents from the Chinese government. I was told "Beijing said 

so" and gave no reason. I checked with the PSB and i'm not on any re-entry ban list, I wasn't deported so I'm definitely not banned. Both my passports are good for entering china. 

I'd really appreciate some advice on how to proceed further. Common sense tells me once I actually enter China, i'd be able to work.. But my Z visa is being denied for 

no reason. Could I try at another embassy? Do the embassies share result? Really urgent problem please help me!

[变形金刚]

Sounds like a very complicated situation. I don't understand why they were looking at the visas in your UK passport when you were applying with your NZ passport, or why you applied for an F visa first when you were planning to enter on a Z visa.

 

Anyway, don't worry! This is probably solvable. I think the #1 thing you need to do is have the school use a good visa agent when they reapply for the z-visa paperwork. You can explain the situation first and see what the agent says, and assuming they have decent guanxi, they might be able to push it through anyway even if this problem comes up again. Also you should definitely go to another embassy next time if possible. I am thinking that it could only lead to more headaches if the staff at that particular embassy still remembers you

[langxia]

She took a copy of the Z visa letter, SAFEA work permit, my statement and sent it to "Beijing" (What is Beijing? ) The psb?...

Beijing is the capital of China.

[fanglu]

Went back to home country, applied a NZ passport (Im born in NZ but with dual nationality). Yes I know passports are linked.

 

What do you mean the passports are linked? The only link is your name and dob, as far as I know. While China can (and does) link people by name and DOB, not just nationality (specifically in case people change their nationality), AFAIK it's only done for people who have committed serious crimes.

 

When I came to apply for my Z visa i was asked about the many visa in my UK passport

 

How did they know about your UK passport? Surely the whole point of getting the NZ passport was so they wouldn't know about your previous issues.

 

I don't quite understand why my Z visa was denied if i was already pre-approved with all the neccessary documents from the Chinese government.

 

The Chinese government is made up of many agencies. The labour department (or some other body) approves the Z visa paperwork, but its the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that decides whether or not to give you a visa. The body that provides the work visa paperwork may not know/care whether you have (for example) previously overstayed or committed a crime (in China or elsewhere) but the MFA does.

 

I checked with the PSB and i'm not on any re-entry ban list, I wasn't deported so I'm definitely not banned.

 

But it wasn't the PSB that didn't give you a visa, it was the MFA. You don't have to be black-listed for them to not give you a visa. There are any number of reasons they can not issue one. In your case, I'd bet it was that (in their view - not necessarily right) you have a history of not complying with your visa, so it would be better not to give you another chance.

 

my Z visa is being denied for no reason

 

 

There will certainly be a reason, they are just not telling you. When I previously worked at a Chinese consulate it was policy to not give reasons, as it just caused problems.

 

Could I try at another embassy? Do the embassies share result?

 

This would be my suggestion: Apply with your NZ passport, don't show them your UK passport, don't tell them you have ever been to China before (unless it was on the NZ passport). This should absolutely be at a different consulate (if possible in another country which you have entered on your NZ passport (you don't want them to know about the UK passport)) - if you go back to the same one they are likely to remember you.

 

As for sharing information, yes, they do, but not much, and I doubt it would affect you.

 

The worst that can happen is you don't get a visa. If that is the case, I hear teaching English in Korea is fun.

[roddy]

I might try getting some more supporting documentation from your employer - headed notepaper, stamp, we are a legitimate school and have an urgent need for Mr X to fill a teaching post here. We have supplied all necessary documentation. We accept responsibility for any problems that arise. Any questions please contact us. Copy of business license, registration with education authorities, employ barbarians certification, whatever. 

 

Add in a letter for yourself explaining how you accept full responsibility for the earlier incident, which arose due to you not being familiar with Chinese visa rules. Grovel. 

 

I wouldn't start swopping embassies and passports. They're likely to spot you and it's going to look like you're operating in bad faith. To be honest I think that F visa application might be the problem - what was that for? English teaching 'internship'? And also swopping passports, why do that unless you're trying to not be noticed. And they noticed. 

 

"5 Days in Daxing Detention"

 

Wow, tell us about that. 

 

"Went to the embassy to apply an F visa first but got denied for no reason

When I came to apply for my Z visa i was asked about the many visa in my UK passport, the visa official asked me to write a statement of why i may been refused last time."

This is funny. "We're not giving you a visa. Can't tell you why. If you want another visa, write an essay guessing why we didn't give you the first one and we'll think about it. We can do this as many times as you have visa application fees to waste."

 

As I think Fanglu would agree, you have worked illegally in China before and therefore they're assuming there's a good chance you'll work in China illegally again. And unless you can convince them that's not going to happen, they're not inclined to let you in. 

[Stefan91]

I Think, my Z visa invitation letter is issued by the MFA themselves, how can they have problems, they would've looked up ALL my names and birthdates from their record.

 

Fanglu you said your an embassy staff from before, so I think in China theres an electronic record saying I've been to China before, that would be lying and i'd surely be refused any visa in future.

 

What do you guys think about having "HK residency" written on my SAFEA working permit, would the official have spotted that as wrong, and declined on that?

 

If I got all this documents prepared again (correctly) for my UK passport, which would mean applying at another embassy for sure, as its my UK passport thats never been refused a visa I am right to tick NO for "have you been refused before?"   or would that connect to the refuse at the first embassy for my NZ refusals?

Cuz my city will only do NZ passports, other embassies in NZ are out of jurisdiction, so a UK passport would go to another embassy and no one will remember me. 

[fanglu]

I think in China theres an electronic record saying I've been to China before

 

Firstly, I wouldn't overestimate the state of Chinese record-keeping. There may be a record, but who knows where? Regardless, if there is a record its linked to your UK passport, not your NZ passport. They won't know you've been before. (Unless you told them so on your previous application and now they have linked the two passports.)

 

that would be lying and i'd surely be refused any visa in future

 

It's quite funny, it was always western people that were worried about lying on the visa forms, and I saw a number who were refused visas because they wrote down things that the Chinese government would have had no way of knowing (like criminal records), despite my hints not to. Chinese people (former Chinese citizens - obviously people who are still Chinese citizens don't need visas) were far more ready to read between the lines and fill in what was expected; the truth had little to do with it.

 

 

Roddy's suggestions (about grovelling) are good too (and I'd add you should talk about how much you love China and really want to go back). I've seen similar things work for getting visas that had previously been denied before (although not for this kind of situation). I'm just skeptical that it will work for you. From their perspective, there's a lot of foreigners who want to work in China, why should they take a chance on you rather than someone who has an unblemished record?

[Stefan91]

Fanglu, can you tell me the process that happens, as you've worked in embassy before, when you get Z visa documents, what do you do? Check with somewhere? Or do you examine them yourself then grant visa.

Thanks

[fanglu]

When I did it, there was generally no further checking of Z visa documents. If there was a question around authenticity I suppose they could be checked, but I never heard of it happening. The documents were examined, and a decision made in the consulate without reference to anyone else.

 

There was sometimes further checking of applications, but it was related to issues other than the employment paperwork, such criminal records or previous visas. This was done by consular officials, not employed staff like me, so I don't know exactly who they consulted with.

 

This was in 2009.

[Stefan91]

Ah ok got it thanks,  that would mean the point on the signature part of the form "You accept you may be granted visa, but refuse of entry to china". Hence references aren't made to anyone else. 

 

I will think of trying another embassy.  I guess Z's pass through with less checking than L's right? As Z is more of a long-term stint in China.

Documents for Z wouldn't be issued if one could reenter. So I reckon it was the official in that embassy who denied and said "Beijing said" When the PSB have no problems with me entering China.

[fanglu]

The decision is normally made in the consulate you apply to, but not always. 

 

The amount of checking (at the consulate) is the same for Z as for L visas.

 

As I said before, just because you are issued Z visa documents and told to apply for a visa, doesn't necessarily mean you will be granted a visa. There are reasons you may not be granted a visa that have nothing to do with the employment documents.

 

Anyway, good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Stefan91]

Thanks, i've been in contact with visa agencies, and CMSLegal lawyers from shanghai and so forth. They all examined my situation, that I was given a punishment and a fine, and detention, if the fine was paid i could come back, and not be deported . I was given a timeframe to leave china, 10 days, and left within the permitted time. They said with valid employment documents I can apply a new visa.  As its said, the Consular official has the final word. Is the law this unclear? :\

[roddy]

There's nothing unclear here. You're not banned, but they still have discretion over your visa - it isn't an automatic right - and they're looking at your application and history and deciding it isn't worth the risk. Improve your application to convince them otherwise and you might get in. Or try switching passports and embassies. 

 

But seriously - you could easily end up having these hassles EVERY YEAR. How bad do you want to be in China? 

[Stefan91]

Badly man, I haven't got a girl or wife in the mix if thats what you mean.. I love that place. This time I included a written letter red stamped by the hiring company.

The charge sheet mentioned nothing of a ban, my friend was deported and his sheet said 2 years.. 

[Stefan91]

They seemed to not want to process it at the other embassy, although the visa officer said over the phone they'd do it.

 

They sent all documents back including the application form.

 

I dont know guys, I start to feel I am banned.  But why wasn't I told that in Beijing? The police charge sheet doesn't mention it at all. Such as when someone is subject to deportation and for how many years, they're told how long.

 

Is there any way to request clarification, even a time frame?

 

is it possible to submit new working papers, with a plea (appeal) written stating ill follow the law. (grovelling so on like the last poster said)

[Guest scooby]

Some guys tried to get a visa in Hong Kong http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/41414-the-hong-kong-visa-topic/ however with different results. Obtaining the desired Chinese visa may be hard or sometimes impossible, so there's no surprise if you don't get, I mean China may be an interesting country, but you can try to consider alternatives, for example, Taiwan. I know it's not the same as Mainland China, but still similar in many aspects.

[Stefan91]

I kinda think if theres some "other" list. That i'm on, it'd be spread accross all the embassies, is there a visa agent processing place i can mail my passport to in HK for it?

 

I'm just afraid i'm perma banned cuz of this illegal working on Z visa. They never told me how long on my charge sheet. Nothing is clear, i'm not told if im banned... Just both F and Z denied, even the reapplication of the Z at other place

[zhouhaochen]

I hope things are going well. One thing to make you feel a little better, once you are on a work visa, extending them is - at least in my experience - in China a pretty simple and routine thing to do. So once you are in, you are in, at least for as long as you stay in the same job

 

Also, in my experience working with a visa agency always makes things easier. They know which documents you need and have experience in dealing with the people at the embassy. There are loads of arbitrary decisions made by individual people and nobody on the internet will be able to tell you what that person who handles your application is like - but an agent who applies for visas there every day might.

[Stefan91]

Thanks for your reply;

 Update is; the Embassy declined my Z visa. I'm still being told by other channels that my company said that the PSB still don't know why my visa is NOT being issued by the MFA. It makes no sense I have the invitation letter from the MFA yet the MFA don't give visa? No sense.

 

How long until I can apply again? By the time it's February it'll have been a year since leaving China. If i apply for working in another company not located in Beijing, then do the grovel letter would I have better luck? I'm intending to apply again in Feb... Is there a waiting Period before reapplying? (This que is for fanglu"

[fanglu]

You can apply whenever you want. Whether they give you a visa is another question, of course. If you're using different documentation you might as well try straight away.

 

On the other hand, I don't know what the length of time between you last leaving china and applying would need to be before they'd overlook your previous issues. I doubt it would be short however. If I were you, I'd try Roddy's grovel letter idea, and then, if that doesn't work, give up on China for the foreseeable future.

On the Beijing versus other city, I don't see that it would make any difference. The problem is not with your employment documents, it's simply that the visa-issuing agency (the consulate and more broadly the MFA) thinks you're too much of a risk.

 

Edit: It's not a waiting period per se. (From their perspective) they're not punishing you; they're managing the risks of people breaching their visa rules. Someone who has a history of breaching visa conditions is likely to do so again, so, to ensure they don't, the embassy doesn't give them a visa.