Advice for reading San Guo Yan Yi and Hong Lou Meng

[Bill Rogers]

Hello, I'm looking for advice and resources for reading these novels. I'm self-taught for many years. Twenty years ago I managed to read through Xi You Ji and Shui Hu Zhuan, by dint of a lot of persistence and willingness to wear out a couple of dictionaries. Then I didn't read Chinese for a long time. Now I'm retired and want to read the other two of the four classic novels. I've been warming up by reading some contemporary stories and articles from "A Reader in Post-Cultural Revolution Chinese Literature" by Vivian Ling Hsu. It's very interesting and extrememly convenient because of facing page vocabulary lists. I've also been reading a bunch of Tang poetry in Archie Barnes' "Chinese through Poetry" and I've started working through Rouzer's "New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese" because my impression of both Hong Lou Meng and San Guo is that their language is more classical than that in Xi You Ji and Shui Hu.

 

Does anyone who has worked through the four classic novels have suggestions for ways to warm up (versus just diving in with a dictionary)? Also, do you know of good resources for lists of characters and family relationships? - it was the enormous cast of characters that efeated me when I tried to read Hong Lou Meng long ago.

 

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Shelley]

I found the characters and relationships hard to follow in the English version

 

There is this wonderful podcast done by John here http://www.3kingdomspodcast.com/2014/04/09/episode-0/

 

Maybe listening and reading at the same time with his notes might be a way to let yourself in to it gently.

 

Welcome to the forums. Hope this helps.

[Hofmann]

Make/find a chart of characters and note how they're related.

 

Here's a 賈 family tree I made.

[MPhillips]

...

[Lu]

I read the HLM in English, but I didn't find the cast that daunting. For me it worked to just keep in mind the main characters (Jia Baoyu and his girlfriends, his father, his main maid and a few other family members) and just read the rest as you come across them. Many people only show up once, or only have their own story arc once, and it can be enjoyed even if you forget who exactly they were the servant of again. Of course that's not an attitude that will make me any kind of 红学家, but it worked to enjoy the book.

And 佩服佩服. I don't think I'll manage the HLM in Chinese in this lifetime.

[Bill Rogers]

Thanks for all the quick and very helpful replies. Shelley, that podcast site is excellent. I think it will be very helpful. And the idea of a do-it-yourself chart of the characters and relationships is a good one; probably will stick with me better than just getting one someone else made.

 

Thanks again, Bill

[Shelley]

I have often wanted to try reading this.

 

Would a group read of 三国 be something any one is interested in.

 

What about you Bill? would you like to join a group where we all read this version http://purepen.com/sgyy and help each other understand and enjoy it.

 

I will start a new topic, if we get a few interested people we can start a group read.

[renzhe]

Best of luck with your plan! Finishing all four classics is quite an accomplishment!

I agree with plotting a family tree. I did this with 巴金's Torrents trilogy (家，春，秋) and I kept a list of all major characters in 水浒传, with a couple of notes on each. I found both very helpful and I'm sure they'll be useful for 三国 and 红楼梦, both of which have a ridiculous number of characters.

If you are not 100% sure of your Chinese, it helps to have a translation handy. Not as main reading, but to refer to if the story gets too convoluted, or a battle too confusing. I used this when first reading 射雕英雄传 and I found it a life-saver in certain places.

[Bill Rogers]

Shelley,

 

I would definitely be up for a group read of San Guo Yan Yi. I had thought I might spend a few more months "warming up" with easier things, but I think I can just jump in. I managed the other two novels before, so I hope the forgotten characters will come back. So I've started listening to the podcasts you recommended and I'm ready to start the journey of 10,000 li.  I cannot use the electronic version you suggested because I know traditional characters, and I'm an old guy who needs physical books anyway, at least for anything difficult like this. Also I'll have to learn to enter characters on the computer, but that could be fun. Anyway, I'm definitely game for a collaborative reading.

 

Bill

[Shelley]

I am sure we can make it work what ever way you want to read it.

 

I started a new topic about it, maybe add your name to it to get the ball rolling?

 

And yes we can take our time, it supposed to be for pleasure, its not meant to be a task.

[Pingfa]

From what I gather, 西游记 is said to be the easiest and the first most people read. 红楼梦 is said to be the hardest, but mainly due to being more in-depth and abstract than the others (even for Chinese it's said to be quite difficult).

I read some of 西游记 years ago and found it quite difficult at the time; although the language is generally simpler than the others, I recall there are a lot of poems heavy on classical, way more than 三国 (三国 has fewer and simpler poems than 西游记 and 水浒传). 

I've read about 20 chapters into 水浒 and 15 into 三国. The chapters are shorter in 三国 and there are less poems, but it's less vernacular than 水浒 or 西游记. Minus the poems I wouldn't say there is a huge gap between them, though; if you can read one you can read the other.

I can't speak for 红楼梦 because I haven't read it in Chinese, though I did read 2 volumes of the English translation and found it difficult to keep up with. Mostly I just found it boring.

[洋人丹]

With Three Kingdoms, I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with some of the people and things of the time. There's so much stuff (literature, historical writings, operas, folk tales, etc.) written about that period, and I think having knowledge of a lot of those things really adds a lot to the story during reading. I had read 三国志, some parts of 世说新语, and 易中天的品三国 before reading 三国演义. In my opinion, it's harder to appreciate the novel without at least a little knowledge of the history of the characters within.

 

Obviously not saying you need to read all that stuff above beforehand, but familiarizing yourself with the people and some of the stories (if you aren't already), their places in Chinese folklore and their cultural significance throughout history make the story a much more interesting read.

 

An example: Cao Cao and Yuan Shao were best buddies when they were teenagers, which if I remember the novel doesn't really go into, (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) but adds a whole layer to their part of the story.