Need some structure

[Evanoff]

Here's a quick run down of my background learning Mandarin:

 

I'm a senior at university in the U.S. with a busy year left before I graduate. I took all of the Chinese classes my university provides in my first years and have been on and off studying on my own ever since. School + job + basic living stresses keep me from seeking a proper learning structure that can fit into everything. I've been studying characters a lot because systems like Memrise and Anki are easy to use and easy to grab and study when I get the time, but I don't know where to go from here.

 

My original classes didn't cover characters or tones (and was very forgiving when we made mistakes), so after those ended I started out my self teaching by relearning what I knew and including the tones and characters. After that, like I said, I went to grabbing Memrise and Anki whenever I could to learn vocabulary/characters. But now I'm behind on grammar and I don't know where to go in regards to vocabulary (as in, what vocab do I need to be learning at this stage). I know around 150-300* words but have little idea about how to use them properly or how to fully understand them when I'm reading something. My areas of study aren't related to Chinese or China, so everything I learn is completely on my own time.

 

With my classes starting me off on a weak structure and my grammar taking backseat to character learning, I'm kind of a mess and don't know what to do.

 

 

* I know that's a big gap but I can't properly place how many characters I know. All of my learning has been scattered between classes and programs, I don't have a true estimate.

 

 

What I need:

 

Structure. Structure on my level that doesn't treat me like a complete beginner. I need a system - preferably online or using online resources- that doesn't treat me like I don't know anything but also doesn't throw me into the wind saying "just pick something to learn". I need something to tell me "this is what you need to know, this is what you need to know next". I'm going to go back to my textbooks from class (the Integrated Chinese series) to help, but books can be inconvenient to carry around and pull out when I'm a student jumping from place to place. I have my tablet and phone (androids) for everything. Plus, the more resources the better.

 

I need tips or advice on what I can do. My goal currently is to be at the intermediate stage my vocab tells me I'm at. After that, I can actually advance with some confidence. What did you do to have a strong beginner/intermediate foundation?

 

 

Any advice is helpful advice!

 

 

 

 

 

(Just to add a bit more information, my main interest in learning to read and write, though I've been learning to listen and speak as well.)

[Shelley]

Hello and welcome, I would say you have taken one step in the right direction and joined Chinese Forums

 

Going back to your text books is probably the best way to start in my opinion.

 

As you have a tablet/phone I would strongly recommend trying Pleco, there is a free version to see if its for you. I feel the cost is reasonable and worth every penny. If you are also keen on learning characters then I would also recommend Skritter.

 

There are a few topics on this forum about what things/ways to study, have a browse around. they may prove to be helpful.

 

Feel free to post any questions you may have, the folks round here are usually very helpful, remember to include as much info/detail you may have and any efforts you may have made to help people answer.

 

Hope it goes well for you

[li3wei1]

My original classes didn't cover characters or tones

 

May I ask who is offering this (ahem) 'innovative' approach to teaching Chinese?

 

This is like an ESL student saying "they didn't teach us vowels"

[querido]

Hey Evanoff! Welcome to the forum. :-)

 

It was a good idea to start over, and to stick with Integrated Chinese. Integrated Chinese offers what you ask for: it tells you what to learn step by step. I once used it myself in a beginner's course but we learned the characters... and the tones!!

 

"I've been studying characters a lot because systems like Memrise and Anki are easy to use"

If you mean that you're studying characters and words in isolation then you should just stop doing that in my opinion.

If you're studying the words from Integrated Chinese, where they occur in context and also with audio, then you can rely on the book to teach you how to use them.

 

"With my classes starting me off on a weak structure..."

That was the class's fault, not yours or the book's, right?

"and my grammar taking backseat to character learning"

That's what you've been doing yourself; that's your "fault", right?

"I'm kind of a mess and don't know what to do."

Go back to the "Integrated" environment that will tell you how to use all of the words. 

 

"books can be inconvenient to carry"

"I have my tablet and phone (androids) for everything."

1) Integrated Chinese has a web version, for a price. Did you know? Have you seen it? I have. It's nice.

2) You could scan from the book. You could scan it onto paper or better into your devices. Hey, you could just photo the pages! EZ! Copy the audio chapter by chapter - you DO have the audio, right? - and carry that around too.  (I think I busted your argument!) :-)

 

"the more resources the better"

Maybe not. You said "all of my learning has been scattered" and "with a busy year left before I graduate". The best reason to collect resources is so you can then *choose* one and dig in. But we already know that IC is a good choice. Of course, if you're sick of it there are many others.

 

Good luck!

[querido]

If you point out which part you think isn't helpful-spirited, I'll show you where your English comprehension is weak.

[hedwards]

@li3wei1, I think that greatly depends upon the goal of the class. If it's a conversational class that's not intended to produce people that are able to read, or it's intended as a primer before learning in a more intensive program; I don't see any real problem with that. There's something to be said for allowing students to get comfortable speaking before putting too much effort into literacy.

 

I do agree with you that if a class isn't covering characters, that the results are going to be limited. So much of spoken Chinese is the way that it is because of the writing system that things didn't make much sense to me until I started to learn to read.  Not to mention that without the ability to read, it's a lot harder to analyze sentences and build up a catalog of sentence patterns from written materials to work with.

[li3wei1]

I can understand not tackling characters in a beginning class, and elsewhere in this forum the possibility that this might actually be an optimal strategy has been discussed. I have no problems with learning to speak without learning to read or write, especially as an introductory approach. But to not cover tones? That would only make sense if you're doing the exact opposite, learning to read without learning to talk or listen.

[Evanoff]

Thanks everyone, I'm glad to hear that going back to IC wasn't a bad decision because I've made a lot of not-so-helpful decisions so far. Phew lol

 

 

May I ask who is offering this (ahem) 'innovative' approach to teaching Chinese?

 

This is like an ESL student saying "they didn't teach us vowels"

 

 

 

 

I live in a very poor area - the poorest and most difficult in live in in the U.S. And my university isn't a prestigious one to put it lightly - I'm surprised we have Chinese classes to begin with. The classes exist because the university needed more language classes for majors/minors that need multiple languages on record. However, no majors or minors are offered related to China/Chinese/Asian studies, so it's fair that the classes aren't great considering the circumstances. I don't want to out my university like they've committed a crime, it just isn't the area they're funding or focusing on making better. They hired a new teacher, so maybe the problems have been fixed.

 

 

1) Integrated Chinese has a web version, for a price. Did you know? Have you seen it? I have. It's nice.

2) You could scan from the book. You could scan it onto paper or better into your devices. Hey, you could just photo the pages! EZ! Copy the audio chapter by chapter - you DO have the audio, right? - and carry that around too.  (I think I busted your argument!) :-)

 

 

1. No, I wasn't aware of that.

 

2. I could, but considering that the book is a resource to be used while taking a class I wasn't sure if it was as effective without the class part. And no, the teacher took the audio from all of our books before they even hit the bookstore for us to buy. I think she was trying to make us use their language lab to study rather than study on our own with the audio.

 

[renzhe]

This might not sound very helpful, but with a vocabulary of 300 words, you are very much a complete beginner. An intermediate student should know more than 2000 words, and an advanced one close to 10000. I'm going by the vocabulary lists for the old HSK test, which was widely considered to be authoritative.

I'd suggest getting a good textbook and starting at the beginning. That will give you the structure you need -- graded grammar, vocab in context, characters, audio to listen to, etc. You can always skip anything you already know.

Then you'll want to get your hands on an HSK vocabulary list. These are good, graded lists of essential words and characters you should know. Most modern textbooks take these into account, so learning this stuff along with your textbook progression using something like Anki is generally a good idea.

As you progress towards the intermediate stage (finished several volumes of a good textbook, about 2000 vocabulary items under your belt), you can move to reading comics and simpler books, as well as trying to watch simpler TV shows. At this point, a language partner would also be a good idea. Mind you -- they are always a good idea, but the less advanced you are, the better your tutor has to be, and this is sometimes difficult to find. Advanced people can talk to anyone, but beginners really profit from experienced teachers.

[Basil]

 Agree with renzhe. 

[oceancalligraphy]

There are a few sources for supplementary materials for Integrated Chinese:

 

Online learning center for Integrated Chinese

 

UC Berkeley Integrated Chinese Multimedia Exercises

 

Wayne State Chinese course media

 

Hope this helps!  =)

[hedwards]

A couple recommendations, you might want to take a look at: http://www.memrise.com/course/168645/hsk-complete-incl-examples/ It's got both HSK vocab and example sentences.

The other thing, is that this sounds as much like a willpower problem as anything else. I just started reading The Willpower Instinct by Kelly McGonigal. I'm still working through it, but it's well worth a look. Unfortunately, aspects of Chinese seem to require more willpower than other languages, especially the writing system.

[Kolbe loves 凉面]

As for free, many sources online will be sufficient.  Just google Chinese lessons.

 

As for paying, I think these Live ABC interactive books are pretty good. http://www.liveabc.com/english/index.asp

To be honest, I would suggest them for a complete beginner with no prior knowledge, but someone with a good handful of vocabulary should be able to follow the books pretty smoothly. They go over pronunciation, sentence structure and many cultural points such as how to make tea and the history of different Taiwan and Chinese cities.  

 

You can also buy the Integrated Chinese books and use the links "yst" suggested.  

In addition to that, Wayne State's Confucius Institute also has videos online to teach basic sentences with more Chinese slang and whatnot 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ciwsu

 

 

You can also look up Beijing Press and see what they have.  In China, we used Developing Chinese 发展汉语. It was pretty good.