Is it bad to use chinese to talk with non-natives speakers?

[grawrt]

Hey guys for a long time I've had this problem where I'm not sure if I should be using Mandarin to talk with non-native speakers (aka; People also learning the language like me). I always get conflicted because of two reasons

1) I feel like I might say something completely wrong and then accidentally pass on this bad mistake onto them and hinder their learning because now they just adopted my bad habit.

2) Or worse, I might adopt their bad habits and hinder my own learning.

I'm currently in China so I really only want to speak chinese but I don't want to speak it at the cost of learning bad habits, or teaching bad habits to others. Admittedly I think I would feel even worse if I taught others mistakes so I seldom ever talk chinese with non-native speakers.

What do you guys think? Am I being crazy?

Just as a note: I don't normally hang out with other non-native speakers but there are occasions that I do go out to places with my classmates.

[hedwards]

It's definitely not wrong to speak with non-natives, however, the results aren't going to be much better than speaking to yourself. It reminds me of a classmate from Peru that thought her English and that of the other students was great. When she got to the US though she realized that they all had really strong accents.

 

For people who need to get comfortable and used to speaking the language, then any practice is worthwhile, just keep in mind that practice with non-natives is not likely to increase your level unless they're already at a higher level.

[Silent]

 

1) I feel like I might say something completely wrong and then accidentally pass on this bad mistake onto them and hinder their learning because now they just adopted my bad habit.

2) Or worse, I might adopt their bad habits and hinder my own learning.

I think these are non-issue's. True, a learner will make mistakes, however natives do so too. If your exposure to non natives is limited I think the value of maintaining a submersion environment and the activation of vocabulary through actual use outweigh the possible negative effect with ease. I think there is no problem in speaking with poor speakers that have accents and make mistakes as long as you maintain sufficient variety in the people you communicate with. If you only speak with a very limited number of people or people with a common 'problem' such as a strong regional accent  the risk of adopting bad habits from them is real.

 

For beginners talking to non natives can actually be beneficial as they tend to use simpler language and as such are easier to understand. The practice is useful and the experience of being able to maintain a conversation can be really motivating.

[OneEye]

I speak to non-natives all the time in Chinese. My two business partners are both non-natives (one American and one German). We speak Chinese to each other about as often as we speak English. I talk to old people in Taiwan all the time, and for most of them their native language is Taiwanese, not Mandarin. The lady who owns the "Indian" restaurant down the street is Vietnamese, and we speak Chinese to each other. I was in Hong Kong a few months ago, and I think every person I spoke with in Mandarin was a native Cantonese speaker. It's a means of communication. I can't imagine not talking to someone I wanted to talk to just because they grew up speaking a language other than Mandarin.

 

You just need to be mindful of the fact that they're not native speakers, so you don't pick up any of their bad habits. Whether they pick up yours or not is up to them, not you.

[eliaso]

It's definitely not wrong to speak with non-natives, however, the results aren't going to be much better than speaking to yourself.

 

If this was true then nobody in Europe would be speaking decent English.

[shuoshuo]

If anything, the absolute WORST habit non-native speakers have is speaking English to the other foreigners in China. I find this so disturbing. They are the ones who will never be able to speak Mandarin because they lack practice, and it's their fault.

 

In all languages - and those of us who have learned other languages prior to this, knows this well: there is the written form and then there is the oral form of the language. In order to speak well, 要多说！As foreigners, we can refine our tones as we proceed.

 

In all the years I've been in China, I've noticed that most of my Chinese friends only want to speak English with me. If I respond in Mandarin, they will continue speaking English. It has been very hard for me to find Chinese friends who will only speak to me in Mandarin. The only people who will speak to me in Mandarin 100% of the time are my foreign friends who choose not to speak English, or cannot speak English.

 

So I would really encourage speaking Mandarin to non-native speakers. Even if you can identify their many mistakes, they probably feel the same way about you. It's just part of the process.

[grawrt]

Wow thanks guys. I was worried for a while. On the one hand i really didnt want to speak english but on the other I was scared it might be detrimental to others cause I make mistakes quite often and im worried it might affect others. But you're right. Native speakers make mistakes too. 谢谢你们！

[studychinese]

Speaking with foreigners is OK as long as you a listening with an ear to identify their mistakes. Identifying their mistakes can help you with insight into your own.

[zhouhaochen]

If you want to learn Mandarin, speak it. Always, with everyone, whatever their native tongue is.

[Shelley]

Remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained

[roddy]

Ah, I wouldn't worry about a bit of English. Yes, you're there to learn, yes you should practice Chinese a lot, but to slip into a beloved native tongue is a beautiful thing. Why condemn the elementary learner to Orwellian newspeak? Why should he only be allowed to say to his friend 'I very like the class', when what he really wants to say is that the class is brilliant but he's finding his lack of ability to express himself frustrating and hopes to use this to motivate further learning.

 

Nobody would say you should never have a day off from studying Chinese. Five minutes off from speaking Chinese will do you no harm.

 

Moderation in all things, I say. There's more to life than learning Chinese. If we carry down this path people will becoming up with total Chinese immersion strategies and maybe even something called All Japanese All The Time. There's no wisdom in this.

[hedwards]

@Eliaso, it's definitely true and there's plenty of people in Europe that have poor or non-existent English. As far as I know, people are just expected to take English classes, they aren't necessarily expected to use it later on.

 

If you're talking with people that aren't any better than you are, then you're going to see little, if any improvement. The main reason why native speakers are so helpful is that they'll have a much larger vocabulary than typical non-natives will. They'll also be more in tune with how the language is actually used in daily use.

 

However, because fluency is almost entirely a matter of repetition, you can get a ton of practice in with structures you get from books and make headway without speaking to anybody. Granted, you're not going to get comfortable talking with people like that, but you'll make more progress like that than you will by speaking with non-natives that aren't any better.

 

@Roddy, you're definitely correct. A person can't keep it up indefinitely without a breather from time to time. The further along one is the less necessary that is, but it's really tough when you're starting out and have to struggle to say anything complicated.

[Silent]

 

Why condemn the elementary learner to Orwellian newspeak? Why should he only be allowed to say to his friend 'I very like the class', when what he really wants to say is that the class is brilliant but he's finding his lack of ability to express himself frustrating and hopes to use this to motivate further learning.

I think the main reason is that 100% immersion is easy to measure, if you allow 5% native it's hard to measure whether you meet the standard. Add to this that if these are people you meet on a regular basis when you switch once it becomes easier to switch a second time a third time ... and finally just speak English/another language instead of the target language.

 

Occasionally switching is no big issue, however for many people this switching will impact discipline while struggling with the help of dictionary and textbook may instead result in a valuable learning experience.

[hedwards]

100% immersion isn't really that easy to measure. Sure, you can measure the fact that you're immersed, but are you really immersed? When I was in China the first few months I purposefully avoided looking at characters whenever I had the chance to. Apart from the menu and the room numbers, I wouldn't look at any characters at all. Later on, I got more comfortable with them and looked for them wherever I was.

 

In both cases, I was 100% immersed, however in the later months I was much more effectively using the immersion to learn.

 

There's also the bit about code switching. I know that a lot of people don't like it and that it can become a crutch that holds you back, but if you're trying to master the grammar, sometimes you'll find the vocab is holding you back and it's better to learn a new structure than it is to waste time on a word that you might not need ever again.

 

Lastly, it's ultimately not the time you spend, it's the results. True, if you've spent 100 hours on Chinese you won't be a master of it, but by the same token it's easy to spend thousands of hours on Chinese activities and have relatively little to show for it. The real question ought to be whether or not you can complete the tasks you want to complete and talk with the people that you want to talk with. Ideally, you'd also want to be progressing at least a little until you're at least C1, but some people will be happy enough at B2 or earlier.