Another complicated translation request

[IceEagle]

Here's another passage I'm having some trouble with. Here's my best guess.

 

香港、澳門居民如已取得外國國籍，並持有該外國護照者，依香港澳門關係條例第４條規定，持有英國國民（海外）護照或香港護照以外之旅行證照或持有澳門護照（或葡萄牙結束治理前於澳門取得之葡萄牙護照）以外之旅行證照者，其身分即非屬香港、澳門居民，而係為外國人。

 

"Hong Kong and Macao residents who have acquired foreign citizenship, and those who hold a foreign passport, according to Article 4 of the Hong Kong and Macau Relations Ordinance - but not including holders of only British National (Overseas) passports or  Hong Kong issued travel documents or ID, or Macao-issued travel documents, or Portuguese passports issued before the end of Portugese rule of Macau - their identity is that of non-Hong Kong/Macao residents, and may be treated as foreigners."

 

The most difficult part is 而係為外國人 - is this more like "may be treated as foreigners" or is it closer to "must be treated only as foreigners" ?

 

[Kamille]

而係為外國人 literaly means "and they are foreigners". 

Now you can write "and they must be treated as foreigners", there's no problem about it. But "may" is not clear-cut enough.

[IceEagle]

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed.

[Kenny同志]

Both 係 and 為 mean the same here. One of them should be deleted. 

[IceEagle]

Hmm. Could the double use of 為外 be for emphasis or something? Or is it completely ungrammatical?

[Kenny同志]

No, I am afraid not. Combining 係 and 為 is ungrammatical in the text, not for emphasis.

[IceEagle]

That's strange, considering that it's from a government web site: http://www2.newluchu.gov.tw/cht/legislation/legislation.asp?topage=9

 

I wonder why they'd make that kind of mistake, then....

[IceEagle]

Kenny,

 

Can you provide more information about that? I'm trying to understand now why it's ungrammatical. Is there a textbook or a grammar wiki out there that explains this? (I'm also kind of annoyed, as if the webpage had used correct grammar I probably wouldn't have had so much trouble with that passage.)

 

I tried searching for it, and it turns out thousands of results. I'm wondering if it's actually a colloquial usage,. or possibly from another dialect.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E4%BF%82%E7%82%BA%22&hl=en&prmd=ivns&ei=keXSU4TxM4iyyASk-YJQ&start=10&sa=N&gws_rd=ssl

[Kenny同志]

冰雕同志：

 

There are quite a number of two-character compound words in which both the characters mean the same thing, for example 觀看, 售賣, and 信函. Such words have been in use for a long time and well accepted but this is not the case with 係為.

 

Edit: By doing a quick Google search, I found that the results mostly came from Hong Kong and Taiwan-based websites so this usage was probably regional. And it's quite formal actually.

 

Anyway, I still think it's a bad word, just like other such words and I always try to avoid them in my writing and translation. Compare the following expressions:

 

而係為外國人= 而係外國人 而為外國人

觀看比賽=看比賽  觀賽

本店售賣土雞蛋=本店售土雞蛋

聆聽公眾的意見=傾聽公眾的意見 聽聽公眾的意見

我想聆聽你的高見=我想聽聽你的高見  願聆高論

[oceancalligraphy]

It's really formal Chinese. Since the topic is immigration and Taiwan's recognition of foreigners in relation to China and Hong Kong (from IceEagle's previous translation post), it's also legal Chinese, not simple news or announcement stuff from a government website.

 

My reading is that 係 means 是, while 為 means 作, so 係為 is a very formal way of saying 當作, so I would translate 而係為外國人 as "are treated as foreigners."

[Kenny同志]

The sentence can be made clearer this way:

 

依香港澳門關係條例第４條規定，香港、澳門居民已獲外國籍，並持該國護照或旅行證照（除英國海外國民護照和葡萄牙結束治理前於澳門取得之葡萄牙護照）者，其身分視作外國人，不再以香港、澳門居民視之。

[IceEagle]

yst, Kenny, thank you both... I think I understand this a little better now.

[Kenny同志]

You are welcome.

If you had been aware of the sentence pattern hidden in the last part of the sentence, it might have been easier for you to understand it.

其身分即非屬香港、澳門居民，而係為外國人

The pattern is 不是（非）……，而是（係, 為）……