Holy sh*t! Scam city Shanghai!

[studychinese]

Disclosure:I have been to Beijing, Shenzhen, Wuhan, Nanjing, in the people's Republic.

In Shenzhen I saw one scam in five days. In Wuhan zero on four days. In Nanjing zero in three days. In Beijing about 10 in three months. In Shanghai 20 on my first day.

I'm shocked. There are an enormous amount of people scamming foreigners in Shanghai, starting at Pudong airport (why don't the airport authorities do something about the that? They are damaging the image of Shanghai).

I walked along Nanjing North Street and was subjected to an great number of scams. I took it in good humor but I can see how people good be taken in by the scams.

Why is this permitted to continue? Clearly everyone knows what is going on, including the police. Any thoughts?

[Silent]

Never been to Shanghai, but maybe you could tell a little more about the kind of scams you encountered? What one calls a scam is not always considered a scam by someone else. Take something simple like overcharging, some people call it a scam, other people call it free enterprise. I would be somewhere in the middle and take the circumstances into account.

 

 

In Beijing about 10 in three months.

 

If you hang out in the right places and look the right way it's easy to get that number of hits in only a couple of hours. That is if you consider being invited to too expensive tea a scam. see here. Of course there's nothing wrong with asking people to have tea and there's nothing wrong with going to an expensive place to have tea and there's nothing wrong with consuming a lot and asking some stupid tourist to pay. I think it's even open for debate or there is anything wrong with cashing a nice commission. The combination and the way things are played doesn't feel well with most. In the end however it's just another ordinary business where morals give way for the sake of (quick and easy) profits.

 

 

I'm shocked. There are an enormous amount of people scamming foreigners in Shanghai, starting at Pudong airport (why don't the airport authorities do something about the that? They are damaging the image of Shanghai).

 

Why is this permitted to continue? Clearly everyone knows what is going on, including the police. Any thoughts?

I can't have any real thoughts about it if I don't know the circumstances, but there's a chance that what you consider a scam is perfectly legal. There's also a chance the police is in on it.

[ouyangjun]

I lived in Shanghai for 6 years and don't feel that Shanghai has anymore scams than other parts of China or Southeast Asia for that matter.  I also feel most of it is not a scam... a lot of times it is just taking advantage of foreigners not knowing the local area and possibly getting overcharged.  Happened to me the other week when I was on business in Bangkok... taxi driver took me and a colleague to a tourist trap of a restaurant where I'm sure he would get commission on the meal.  I don't consider this a scam. (note, we did not stay at the restaurant, we got another cab and went elsewhere).  Same thing happened to me earlier this year in Cambodia, overcharged for 方便面 at a restaurant.  This stuff happens all over Asia Pacific and I don't believe that Shanghai has any higher of a rate than other areas.  Shanghai has a large population and is a large tourist destination, so if you go to the tourist spots for sure you will run into this more than if you're not in the tourist spots (same all over Asia).  Just my opinion from living in Shanghai, traveling around Asia Pacific and now living in Suzhou. 

 

PS - I think Shanghai is great city.

[gato]

It's probably a factor of where OP was and what he considers to be a scam. Selling counterfeit handbags on the Nanjing Road, for example, might be considered a scam by some and not by many others.

Shanghai is probably cleaner in terms of scams than many other Chinese cities. It's very rare that taxi drivers here take you the long way to somewhere in order to overcharge you. That happens much more often in other cities.

[eshton]

I agree with @ouyangjun, my first month in Shanghai I overpaid for just about everything because I didn't know any better, but as I settled in that quickly changed. I went from paying for certain things to getting them complimentary. Of course if OP is referring to the vast availability of fake goods marketed as genuine then that's different. I've had experiences in Shanghai where sellers openly admit their product is a "knock-off".

[shuoshuo]

Would like to know what the OP considers to be 'scam'. Perhaps you can elaborate on that?

 

As soon as you land on Shanghai Pudong airport you should be alright until you exit the arrival hall. If you try change money at the legit currency exchanges available there, they charge a fee (so it is cheaper to change your money at a bank in the city instead of the currency exchanges at the airport. It's the same thing if you try to get a SIM card - you will pay around 100RMB at the China Mobile or Telecom stall (you can find one for around 40, 60, etc. in the city).

 

As you try to exit the airport there will be "taxi" people asking you if you want to take a taxi to your destination. I never take these, but I assume they are drivers who will try to get whatever they can from foreigners. The best thing to do is to take a bus shuttle to your destination, the subway, or a taxi outside at the taxi stand (where an airport official helps you with this, and you have to queue for it).

 

Anyway, the list goes on but these are things that will happen everywhere in China and not only in Shanghai.

[abcdefg]

It's very rare that taxi drivers here take you the long way to somewhere in order to overcharge you.

 

Yesterday I took a taxi (in Kunming) because I was in a hurry and didn't want to bother with the bus. As we got moving I asked the driver if he thought taking the elevated highway 二环路 would save some time at that hour. (Some times of day it does, and at other times it doesn't.)

 

He replied, "Sure, it would. But I never suggest it to foreigners because they think I'm trying to cheat them." (He said 绕路。）I told him to please go ahead and take the faster way. I was willing to pay the extra 5 快。

 

Honest guy.

[abcdefg]

[studychinese]

I didn't think that the definition of scam would be so controversial. I am going by the dictionary definition - to defraud or swindle someone by means of a trick. Usually this involves the scammer misrepresenting his or herself.

The arrival hall in pudong airport is a good example. You are assailed by people with badges with 'airport staff' written on it (the badges are without names, and lacked legitimacy to me. But I can see how tired people coming off the plane would be deceived by it). They claimed to me variously that they were employees of the airport, or were free tourist information. What they are is touts that want to get you into black taxi at inflated cost... Or worse.

I will write out my conversation with these people after having been spoken to by several in different areas of the airport I was surrounded by a group of them while looking for an ATM. The original conversions was in Chinese except for their initial approach in which they spoke to me in English.

Touts: Hello, we are airport employees here to help you. Do you have a hotel yet? What is your hotel? We can get you a taxi, follow me.

Me: If you want to help me please tell me where the citibank ATM is.

Touts: You don't need to go to the ATM you can use your credit card to catch a taxi.

Me: I understand that. However I need to go to the citibank ATM before I do anything else.

Touts: We can charge your card and go to the hotel!

Me: You aren't listening. I understand what you want. You want me to catch your taxi. But I already told you that I want cash from the ATM. You are not helping me at all. I'm going first.

Should the airport allow them to operate in this manner? I think that the answer, clearly, is no. I have been to other places in China, other airports and have never seen an operation so open and so bold. Is there anyone that disagrees that the airport should regulate this activity?

As for Nanjing North Street (upon reflection it may be EAST street) I was approached by tea house scams, bar scams, massage scams, fake 'real' products scams, even a gay guy scam. The abundantly clear intent is to take the dupe to a secondary location and extort money from them. Keep in mind I talked to all of the scammers and they were disappointed that I could speak Chinese. After some questioning their motivation is revealed and they give up.

I have been to equivalent areas in other cities in China and there are scammers but not in numbers like this. I don't even know why that is disputable or even debatable. As to why... Well I suppose that it is because there are many foreigners to victimize in Shanghai. Note that under questioning none of the scammers claimed to be from Shanghai. All claimed to be from other areas of China.

[abcdefg]

I walked along Nanjing North Street and was subjected to an great number of scams.

 

When I was there (南京东路）a few months ago, a well-dressed young Chinese couple held up a camera and asked in good English if I would take their photo. I said "No" without breaking stride. They smiled at each other knowingly.

[shuoshuo]

The worst I've experienced was in Harbin.  See, in Shanghai (where I've lived for several years) you already know what they're about and just avoid these services because you can handle stuff on your own. But when I was in Harbin, I didn't know the place well and I had to take a taxi from point A to B. This was a few years ago: the taxis didn't have a meter (as opposed to Shanghai where each Taxi is fitted with one, and the passenger has the right not to pay if they're put through certain conditions). At Harbin, the taxis fight for customers and they over charge, not in tens or twenties but in the hundreds for a short journey.

 

I definitely feel more steps should be taken to prevent all these scams, not only the ones you have experienced in Shanghai but those in other cities as well. You read so many stories about the unsuspecting victims who fall prey to these scams. Quite sad.

[ouyangjun]

It's all par for the course...  If you're in tourist areas and you even talk to the people you open yourself up to being solicited.  If not in tourist areas it generally doesn't exist, and if you are in tourist areas just ignoring or giving an impolite 不要 usually does the trick to keep them away.  The moment you start to try to talk reason is the moment they start to sell harder to convince the foreigner who's trying to be "nice".

[Silent]

 

I didn't think that the definition of scam would be so controversial. I am going by the dictionary definition - to defraud or swindle someone by means of a trick. Usually this involves the scammer misrepresenting his or herself.

If taken too strict that means everything and everyone is a scam. Research shows that peoply lie dozens of times a day. This is a misrepresentation of themselves as they often boast themselves or to be better liked. Every commercial is aimed at positioning a product or brand better than it would based on objective criteria. It's a sliding scale from 'fair' business to devious business to scams.

[shuoshuo]

I agree with ouyangjun. I say 不要 or 不用 whenever I need to any they just leave me alone.

[Lu]

I agree with other posters that selling fake brand name things can hardly be considered a scam. People generally know that those bags aren't really Prada and often that's the whole reason they want them. Not sure what a massage scam or a gay guy scam are - wasn't that just a massage tout?

The airport touts sound really bad though. Can't imagine why the airport is tolerating it. If I recall correctly there's a legitimate taxi line outside Hongqiao airport.

[Ruben von Zwack]

I would like to add, this is not an Asian or Chinese thing, as far as I know Turkey for example is like that too.

Everything said here sounds pretty harmless to me, and the impression I took away from China was that the Chinese are one of the more honest folks. But I've spent a month travelling in India - baptism by fire 

[tysond]

I used to feel upset about all this.  But i try to think of the big picture.

 

The first time I went to India in 2000, I was shocked and amazed that the government allowed its good name to be besmirched with all these "India Government Travel Office" "Department of Travel India" "India Government Office of Travel" "Tourist Office of India" etc - about 40 stalls at the airport that all claimed to be the official government office, impossible to tell them apart,

 

Three weeks later, I was buying "unavailable" train tickets by having an Indian friend jump the queue and argue our case with the office director, for a small commission.

 

Where does the Asia experience stop and the scam begin?  Chinese people deal with this every day of their lives and Chinese tourists *still* get scammed in the big cities.  

Removing touts at the airport won't stop haggling.  Removing tea house scams won't stop a new friend from stiffing you with the bill.  And you have no hope of removing overpriced massage, everybody is in on that one including big hotels.

 

The challenge for foreigners is they are easily tricked by trusting that official channels will be put in place and enforced, and that the official channels will cover everything they need/want to get done.  They also are trivially manipulated by politeness, guilt over being rich, pity and inability to calculate exchange rates quickly.  Basically they are sitting ducks and it's just a question of who shoots them first. 

 

I also agree with Ruben.  The Chinese are *amateurs* at street scams.  A few months ago, we got scammed in India so incredibly skillfully that my wife was furious for two days!  It only cost me about 50 RMB but it was worth every kuai to learn how it's *really* done.

[studychinese]

I have a scam case study that I have done exclusively for the brothers and sisters on Chinese forums. Standby. I'll have it up by tomorrow.

[studychinese]

I am waiting for my dinner so I may as well do this now.

I decided to give this a try today on Nanjing East Street, and see how it goes. A girl approached, one single girl. We spoke (I used Chinese and she switched to Chinese). I asked her after a while if it is her habit to talk to men on the street. She said she does this because she wants to speak English.

We walked for a good 10 minutes and and then she suggested that we get something to drink (no talk of special teas or anything like that). Knowing that this was the moment I asked her if any place is ok, and she said that is fine.

So far so good then. Walking on the main strip I found a 'UBC coffee' and I was expecting an objection but got none at all. This unnerved me.

We go to the third floor and sit down in the cafe. The menu looks like a scam menu, and I realise that I may have been outsmarted. The predator became the prey because I was too clever by half.

The menu seemed like a scam because the first few pages of the menu had normal cafe prices and the last few outrageous prices for this and that.

I ordered a milk tea for 35 rmb. She ordered a red tea and a coke (as far as I knew the red tea was 30 RMB. It wasn't).

Shortly the drinks came, and also an unasked for plate of fruit. The plate of fruit is traditional in scams of this sort. So it begins I thought.

I couldn't object to the fruit because that would have brought our case study to an early denouement. They had yet to play their card and I had yet to play mine.

I could sense the girl with me becoming uneasy as I commented on the poor quality of the tea. She asked if I would some beer. I said no.

A few minutes pass and she says she wants to ask the waiter to refill the tea container with hot water as tea was to strong for her taste. So she gets up to give the pot to the waiter, and returns. A minute later the waiter returns with the pot of tea... And two glasses of wine. I say to the waiter that this must be a mistake, I didn't order this. The girl pipes up that she ordered it. I asked how much it is. She said that she will pay half. I told her that she has misunderstood what is going on here, and I called for the bill. Of course I didn't touch the wine.

The die was well and truly cast, and now the confrontation was inevitable. Now three players would play their hands and I had to beat the hands of both.

The bill came. I took the bill from the waiter/manager. I looked at the bill which came to 960 RMB. And I said -

你开我玩笑！

And tossed the bill onto the plate of fruit. I stood up abruptly and with violence, and oddly I truly was angry. I demanded to know why he was charging me for things that I never ordered. I then stood beside him and I asked him if he and I were going to have a problem, and he was reeling.

The girl piped up that she would pay half but I told her to be silent. I stated that she and the manager the in this together. She was crestfallen.

The manager was still taken aback by the suddenness of the turn of events. I suppose that normally there are some negotiations about the price, a 'discount', or more male backup for the manager. I knew that I had to get out of there fast before events turned against me.

I tossed a 100 RMB note on the plate of fruit and told the manager to be satisfied with it and not to make any more trouble.

I walked away and as I left the manager scolded the scam girl for messing up. All they got was 100 RMB for their trouble and 100 RMB was what I thought it was worth.

The take away from this is even if you choose the cafe even that may not be enough. Most likely the scam is so ubiquitous that most of the cafes in that area, barring Starbucks and the like, are in on the scam (the cafe also seemed to do legitimate business).

Some of you may think that I am crazy to try this but I have been in a much more dangerous situation in Beijing, and come out of it without special losses. I wasn't going to be intimidated in a cafe.

This post comes with all the usual disclaimers, don't try this at home, etc.

[Ruben von Zwack]

 

Some of you may think that I am crazy to try this

 

Crazy is a harsh word, but up for a prank, and maybe a bit bored?

Thanks for the entertaining story though. 960  is hilarious! Isn't even 100 a bit stiff for a pot of tea and a coke? But maybe I'm stingy.

 

Now I am dying to hear Tyson's sophisticated scam.