Holy sh*t! Scam city Shanghai!

[Silent]

 

Some of you may think that I am crazy to try this but I have been in a much more dangerous situation in Beijing, and come out of it without special losses. I wasn't going to be intimidated in a cafe.

I wouldn't know why. I've done the same in Beijing with two girls. First played a bit with other places, then that I wanted to drink something else to finally end up in their intended teahouse which seemed full of laowai accompanied by 1 or two local girls. Then I looked at the menu and told it was to expensive. They claimed it was the same price as starbucks so I agreed to stay and ordered 3 tea's. Then the girls started to order coffee's, seeds etc. When I thought it was enough I asked for the bill. Don't know anymore how much it was, I just said I ordered the tea's so I suggest I pay those and you pay the rest. They disagreed as I had some seeds too. I told them they had drunk my tea. Paid the tea and just left.

 

I think it can be great entertainment to play around with tout's and scam artists. Apart from the entertainment factor they often times are a great source of information. At some places with plenty hassle sending them away only results in some-one else starting to hassle you. So using the less irritating ones for entertainment and personal guiding is the only viable solution.

[MPhillips]

I saw an episode of a true crime reportage show called 天网 wherein a tea-house scam victim avenges himself on the girl who actually bilked him by finding another girl engaged in the same activity and murdering her.

[陳德聰]

Interesting topic. The only city I've ever been successfully(?) scammed in in China was Shanghai, but I still have a nice li'l place in my heart for it.

I put an ad out for my tutoring on a few websites, and early one morning got a call from a woman asking if I could teach her boss's kid how to pass the HSK. I asked who her boss was, and she said it was a guy from Germany who worked for Siemens that had been placed in Shanghai, and he wanted his kid to learn Mandarin. She said to go for an interview, but when I arrived at the address they gave, the number that had called me in the morning texted me to tell me her boss had just gone across the street for lunch and he said it was fine to join him in the 包间 with the other people he was interviewing. I had gone to legit interviews for similar in the past, so I didn't really think anything of it at the time. Except to be honest I had a brief thought of "am I going to be sold into sex slavery?" but I don't think I have the right look for that so I threw caution to the wind and the ensuing hilarity was definitely worth it.

 

So this guy from Germany was actually just a super greasy geezer from Wenzhou, and was "interviewing" two other guys, one to teach his son Cantonese, and one to be a model for their company. I asked a bunch of questions about the alleged son, and when he said his son was blond with blue eyes I felt like he was taking a bit too overboard even for a scam, but at that point I didn't really know what to do. I decided I might as well eat the food and drink the beer since I wasn't willing to turn it into a confrontation, and when he made his move at the end which essentially just involved him duping one of us (the model) into accompanying him downstairs to get into a cab, I just sighed. I thought... that's it? That seems like a lot of effort for a free meal.

I told the other two they could leave and I would explain to the restaurant, and so then I just sat there by myself until finally a server came in and I asked if I could speak to his boss since I had just been scammed. In came the manager and I explained that I wouldn't be paying for anything since it was eaten under the pretence of the whole thing being an interview, and that he should probably call the police to report the guy. The police come, they take me and the manager to the police station, take our statements, the manager gets really mad and says that I ate the food so I should pay, then me and the police officer explain to him together that I wouldn't have to pay even if I did eat, and then we all leave. At that point, the police officer mentioned that he would have thought the restaurant was in on it, but if they were they should have known better.

After I shared the story with one of my classmates, he said he had met the same greasy guy for a similar interview at a different restaurant, but because he drank too much beer he got sick and had to leave early and didn't end up paying anything anyway.

At this point I still feel like whatever the scam is... it's really not very successful.

[tysond]

So the best street scam I've ever seen was in India.  I've made up the amounts of money as I can't exactly remember, but it's roughly correct.

 

In Mumbai, near the touristy locations, there are men selling very large, colorful balloons.  These balloons are about the size of a person.

 

So we think - "Wow they would be fun when we go to Goa next week - throw them into the pool and have a party.  Let's get some!".

My wife is very taken with this idea and begs for us to buy some.

 

So we start talking with one of these guys and go through the usual 5 minutes of negotiation and get him down to something like $10 for a packet of 10 balloons.  We think we have done pretty well actually, it's not cheap by any means, but a dollar each for a balloon the size of a person is worthwhile for the enormous amount of fun we will have.

 

We walk off down the road, I start discussing with the wife that maybe it's gonna bit tricky to blow up, she's talking about having too much fun in the pool, and another guy runs up to us and says "hey wait".

 

"How much did you pay for those" - he asks

"$10" - we say, smug and satisfied that we have bargained hard - "Go away we already have balloons" my wife adds.

"Oh no, you got the small ones!"

"What do you mean?"

"Look, this is what you have, size 80" and sure enough, on the packet is a size marking I didn't see before, saying Size 80.  

He blew up a size 80 balloon for us, showing us how small it is - like a normal balloon.  

"You want the big one?" - he asked

"Yes Yes" of course we agree feeling annoyed we have been ripped off.  My wife is getting angry now.   

He shows us his packets which are size 800!

"Let me exchange for you" he says, taking the existing pack we have purchased and then starts negotiating for the big ones.

It's impossible to get a good price at this point because we already showed him we are willing to pay $10 and these balloons are MUCH BIGGER.  

My wife has completely lost interest in the previous balloons, they are useless to her, and is really really keen to buy the big one now.

A few minutes of negotiation (well, pleading really, we have very little negotiating power because we have shown so much interest) and it's like $15 or something, plus the $10 we've already lost.

 

So now, somewhat annoyed, we start justifying the balloons we've now spent $25 purchasing, which doesn't seem like a great price, but you know, at least we have the right ones now.

We walk down the road for a while... and then... another guy runs up to us.

"How much did you pay for them"

"Go away, we already got the big ones" we say, smug and satisfied that we know this scam now.

"No no, you have the small ones"

"Look buddy, these are size 800, get lost"

"Oh no.  You got the small ones.  You need the big ones.  Look here.  Size 80,000" he says, showing us a packet with size 80,000 printed on it.

He started to grab our packet of size 800s and negotiate to exchange.

I realized the brilliance of this scam and started to laugh and laugh.

My wife got so angry she was like The Hulk (绿巨人).  She grabbed her size 800 balloons back and started yelling at the balloon seller until he left.

Then she yelled at all the other balloon sellers she could see, walking up to them getting in their faces.  Even I was scared.

 

She was angry for 2 days.   I remember not long afterwards she was in the taxi with her head out the window yelling at the balloon sellers

"Do you know what heaven is?  Do you know what hell is? You are all going to hell!  YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!!!".

 

-------------------

 

Why is this scam so brilliant?

 

- Highly attractive and visible lure - huge balloons, florescent colored... but difficult to check they are real as you must blow them up

- Three different scammers can execute against one mark.  (I believe all the guys have all 3 sizes of balloons and can play any of the 3 roles)

- Multi-stage buying process means they can start low but extract more and more money out of you - they even know what you paid last round by asking you (they might even communicate, I am not sure)

- By tricking you into exchanging the small balloons for the big they cut operating costs and conserve inventory

- They actually produce special goods (the packaging is quite large and distinctive, must be easy to spot who bought size 80, 800, etc) - must all be planned in advance

 

What's no so good?

 

- High risk of being killed by my wife or at least cursed into eternal suffering in hell.

[prateeksha]

Tyson, that's a very well-organized serial scam! How about the balloons though? My immediate apprehension after this experience would be that probably the rest of the balloons in the pack are not the same size as advertised, or won't inflate at all. How did this turn out to be? And for consolation sake, did Mrs. Tyson enjoy in Goa? 

[tysond]

You know, we never even opened the packet of balloons.  But I think we brought them all the way home.

Maybe when I get home I'll have a look and see how big they are.  Could be anything inside that packet!  :-) 

 

But Goa was wonderful and Mrs Tyson had a great time.  

[MPhillips]

The scam artist's greatest advantage is being on his home turf, that is of course the reason they single out foreign tourists. A friend of mine from the tropics who devoted all his spare time to chess & was somewhat good at it was still smarting from having been hustled at chess in a park in Dupont Circle, Washington, DC, USA; since it's the foreign legation area I'm sure it makes for some really good chess hustling. So I was passing through with him in July on the way to New York during a record-breaking heatwave & he was determined to find the guy who had shamed him a few months before & get his revenge. Of course he, being cool as a cucumber, won game after game while the pro, dripping with sweat, was no match for my friend who was now on HIS home turf. I'd wanted to visit the National Gallery but gave up & left after half a day for slightly cooler NY, at least my friend was happy though.

[Steingletscher]

          This isn't really a story of being scammed but of straight up dishonesty. It happened recently on a 5 week backpacking trip through the Tibetan areas of Sichuan and Qinghai. One note: hitchhiking through the area is for the most part not free. The majority of people that pick up hitchhikers (and a lot of Tibetan hitchhike) are taxi vans that expect payment upon arrival (though if some out-of-towner Han Chinese people pick you up, then its free). The same guys also hang out in the towns trying to fill up their vans to wherever they want to go. They are the guys who yell at different town names to you if you walk by them. This story is one dealing with them. Not all of them are dishonest, but many are.

          On my last day of the Yushu horse festival, these two American girls I had met there and I were asking around for a ride to leave for Manigango the next morning. We found one that would leave at 8 am for 150 块, so we took it.

          The next morning, we met at the stop at 8:00, only to have to wait for 20 minutes before the guy showed up. Thinking we would leave, we packed our gear in the car, but he locked it and walked away saying he was going to get breakfast. We had no idea how long it would take, so the three of just stood outside of the car (since there was no place to sit in the dirty parking lot), waiting for him. Time went by, and I tried calling him multiple times, of which every time he just replied with "马上。" He finally came back shortly after 10 O'clock with a few of his friends. However, instead of coming to the car, they disappeared into a building nearby, coming out after more then 20 minutes, and with a lot of food. I, clearly angry and annoyed by now, asked what they were doing, and they said they were eating lunch. I told them the time and how long we had been waiting for, and one guy said to me, "relax. We are Tibetan, so we are slow." At least they unlocked the car so we could get some of our stuff and sit in there. After arguing with them, two Tibetans menacingly corned me in the car to "talk" to me. They didn't do anything, but it was clearly a threat so I wouldn't try and push them around again.

          So we waited longer and longer until they finished lunch, which was consumed right in front of us. After this, they again dispersed and disappeared. While they were eating lunch, I found out that the guy I had been calling wasn't actually the driver, but one of his friends was. Anyways, I still called him as I had no other choice, and his response was still the same, "马上。"

          Finally, noontime came and the guys return to the car. They drive out of the parking lot, turn right, and after a few blocks, stop the car, and all three tibetan guys get out. The entire time we waited, we weren't waiting on anyone else since the driver and his friends were eating lunch with the guy who I was calling earlier. Fifteen minutes later, they three guys come back, turn to us and say that they aren't driving to Manigango anymore since the 3 of us wasn't enough. If we wanted to go, we would have to pay 600 total. This entire time, since I was the only one who could speak decent enough Chinese to argue, I was the one dealing with these guys. When they told us this, I flipped out again, got out of the car, and started yelling and cursing them in the middle of the street. I started to draw a crowd, and a policeman's attention. After a couple of minutes, when the policeman got very close, the driver said, "okay okay, let's go." I stupidly believed them and got back in. They drove a few blocks again, stopped again, and then demanded the same, just outside the view of the police. By this time, I was so fed-up that I just said we was getting another vehicle.

          We went back to where all of the taxi vans where and started asking around for rides. Since it was close to 1 pm and where we wanted to go was far away, nearly all of the vans had already left, and the ones that hadn't were nowhere near full. The guy who I had been calling earlier recognized us and asked why we hadn't left yet. I told him what happened, he remarked how untrustworthy those guys were. When I asked him how much it would just for us three to go, he replied 1,200 块, which to me seems even more dishonest. However, all of the other vans wanted 170 a person if it filled up, and he still wanted 150, so we decided to stay in his car (the other two girls were on a very tight budget since none of their bank cards were working out there).

          In the end, we were able to leave that day, though at the price for 500 for all three of us, not much more, but still higher we had agreed to the day before. No two new people came, and the only reason we were able to leave was because one driver was okay with getting a slightly lower amount of money, and also by ripping off one monk who was in a hurry to leave. After this ordeal for 6+ hours, we finally left Yushu (and with a completely different driver).

          Besides the taxi van drivers, there weren't any other scams or dishonest practices that I encountered on my trip. I wasn't targeted because I was an obvious outsider; talking with the locals, it seems everyone is feed up with the taxi vans as they try to cheat everyone: foreigners, Chinese, other minorities, fellow Tibetans, and even at times, as shown above, try to extort monks. It seems over the past year, the rates they have been charging has gone up, much to hatred of the locals. So if you are in the area, try and take the buses wherever possible, though sadly it doesn't go to as many places as the taxi vans do. As for the whole trip, I found Tibetans to be very wonderful people, though at times quite disorganized and ignorant about the outside world. While this story does show one bad side of Tibetans, I also experienced immense acts of kindness from strangers (like being nursed for a few days by a family of strangers I had just met and proceed to puke on their floor) to offset it. I'll get around to writing a guide to the area one of these days.

          One of the worst things I hate is when you are arguing with the guy trying to overcharge you, and he says to you, "Why are you trying to cheat me? You foreigners have a lot of money and can afford to pay a little more. We have very little money." Such things infuriate me like nothing else.
 

          There was also a subplot to this story involving a good friend of mine. At one point, the guy who I had been calling pulled out his phone to show up pictures of "his wife." When I saw the picture, I recognized it as my friend, a German girl, and, given the timing of it, proceed to yell at him while being completely bewildered by the chance of it. He spent a creepily amount of time zoomed in on her face, staring at it. So if you have always wondered what those random people who ask to take pictures with you do with them, you might unknowingly passed off as their husband or wife.

[abcdefg]

#48 -- @Steingletscher -- Sounds like a very unfortunate incident, to have been at the mercy of those scoundrels like that. I suppose it could have ended worse. You could have been robbed at knife point and dumped by the side of a remote mountain road.

 

Personally, I think I would have gone to Plan B very early in this scenario.

 

• This isn't really a story of being scammed but of straight up dishonesty.
• Besides the taxi van drivers, there weren't any other scams or dishonest practices that I encountered on my trip.

 

Just out of curiosity, what sort of fine distinction do you draw between "dishonesty" and "being scammed?" They seem the same to me.

 

Scams are a form of dishonesty, although sometimes they involve more subtle trickery and devious deception than other methods of cheating people.

[Steingletscher]

          The distinction I made is that I since there weren't any real tricks or deception involved to make it seem as something else, I wouldn't call it a scam. We could have easily left and look for another van, but we never did. In the end, they never got the money, and it took hours before they even tried to ask us for it, and when they did, it wasn't one of those situations where you had to pay, but had the option of opting out, as we did. In my view, the model of it is too weak to really count.

          One thing I didn't mention, but should have, is why we waited for so long. We knew that a section of the road more then 7 hours ahead of Yushu was closed for repairs from 7:30 am to 7:00 pm, and no way around it. As we waited in the morning, we assumed that they simply thought that they wanted to do the waiting in Yushu, rather, beautiful as it is, out in the middle of nowhere where there probably isn't even cell phone service. The problem we had was that we were also explicit about wanting to wait out there because of how beautiful it is out there (and the journey from Yushu to Manigango is one of the most beautiful I've ever been on). We had the option of leaving at 2am to avoid the roadblock, but then we would miss the scenery. Also, every other driver we talked to while we were waiting wanted more money then the guys we were waiting on wanted.

 

          As to why we still used the taxi vans? There is no public bus from Yushu to Ganzi (which the much smaller town of Manigano is right before).

[studychinese]

Steingletscher, that was horrible to read. Must have been a lot worse to experience.

A friend of mine that is a body builder and is huge and muscular swears that he has never been scammed or mistreated in any place since he started body building. Scammers just want a quick buck, they don't want an excess of trouble it seems.

Can I pose a question? Why is supply not meeting demand? Is there some sort of government limitation on the number of these vehicles, like taxis in many cities?

[Silent]

 

As we waited in the morning, we assumed that they simply thought that they wanted to do the waiting in Yushu, rather, beautiful as it is, out in the middle of nowhere where there probably isn't even cell phone service

To be honest I wonder what exactly is the problem. Apparantly you had to wait, then it's logical to do so in town rather then in the middle of nowhere. Ridiculous prices are common in some places for tourists where no/few alternative exists. Oftentimes the drivers and touts will create the 'problem' themselves. E.g. by threatening people that want to offer a ride for fair prices or even for free. I've experienced it over and over again. Getting angry, no matter how understandable, isn't going to help, in contrary it more likely will result in some kind of retaliation.

 

In the end it's just a game. Demand and supply, and if they believe that you can easily afford to pay more that will affect supply. Annoying, true, but for me it works the same. If I've something to sell I will be less willing to negotiate a lower price for someone who seems to have plenty of money but wants the lowest price then for someone with a need and obvious financial constraints. I'm more willing to lower my price for someone I like then for someone I don't like.

 

So the trick is look and behave like you're poor and be nice with respect for local people and their customs and when the situation calls for it a little strategic acting may help too. It won't work all the time, but it will give the best results. 

[XuanWu]

i have been to shanghai and indeed the scams are more frequent than beijing but maybe because is a smaller city or most of the attractions(therefore and scams) are in one area. Black taxis awaits you in pudong airport just like elsewhere. When i got to peoples park with the subway, a well dressed couple also appeared to me and after my decline , another wave of attack came with 2 young beautiful girls. When then night falls in east nanjing road you do get approached every 10 meter by

pimps, that really got me tired, and i had to walk wall to wall so they cannot spot me, as they look in the center of the road for their target.

 

But still i prefer shanghai than beijing because the beijing taxi drivers are the personification of pure evil...

[anonymoose]

When i got to peoples park with the subway, a well dressed couple also appeared to me and after my decline , another wave of attack came with 2 young beautiful girls. When then night falls in east nanjing road you do get approached every 10 meter by pimps

 

People's Square and Nanjing Road are the two places (or one place really, since they are next to each other) for this kind of thing. I also get it a lot there, but nowhere else in Shanghai. It's just a pity that these places are usually the first impression of Shanghai for most foreigners.

[Silent]

 

When then night falls in east nanjing road you do get approached every 10 meter by pimps, that really got me tired

How's that different from sanlitun in Beijing?

[Johnny20270]

 

 

People's Square and Nanjing Road are the two places (or one place really, since they are next to each other) for this kind of thing. I also get it a lot there, but nowhere else in Shanghai. It's just a pity that these places are usually the first impression of Shanghai for most foreigners.

 

I remember this was my first impression of China many years ago. I really disliked the place. Loved China once I left Shanghai

 

After the 30th "ah hello, where are you from? You want pretty girl?"  from some squatty round headed Chinese guy wandering around Nanjing Lu at night, you do get irritable. 

 

I did tell one guy "my good man, I 'd like the fattest uglist munter you can get me. And if she is wearing those oversized fashionable cinema 3D glasses, well!, .... that would be just splendid!".

 

Mind you I never liked shanghai anyway, too westernized but in a sh#tty way. I also seemed to notice a lot of dweeby guys weighted down due to carrying their stick thin princesses girlfriend's shopping (which he paid for) while she walks around with her arms folding scowling at him. Beijing waaaay more spirit to me. Some northern Chinese guys seem pretty cool actually and a lot of character, especially the older guys. 

[AdamD]

This is a fabulous thread. So much to say.

I do wonder whether there are periodic crackdowns. In Beijing in December, in the space of five days, I was accosted several dozen times with that art gallery/tea scam, and had at least one taxi tout come at me at the airport. In April this year, I went back for a week and didn't see one scam.

In Shanghai in April, I only hit one scam (a photo couple like the one abcdefg mentioned) in a week. People chased me with fake goods in a suburban shopping centre, but that's just how those places work.

As far as the definition of scam goes: I see it as someone who plans in advance to con or deceive you, and hides their real motive. If they approach you about tea in order to charge you ¥1000 in a locked room, it's a scam. If a taxi driver gets the jump on you at an airport in order to turn a 10 minute drive into a 40 minute one, it's a scam. If some bloke, dressed like a real bus driver, tricks you into getting off the bus at the wrong stop and flogs you a mystery ¥200 half-day tour (this was tried on me), it's a scam.

If a stall holder tells you a ¥10 pair of chopsticks is worth ¥100, it's bargaining. If shonky ¥80 umbrellas appear on 南京路 the second it starts to rain, it's opportunism. If you're given a special English menu with hiked prices, you still know what it all costs before you order anything. If someone chases you through a shopping centre yelling "FAKE ARMANI FAKE ARMANI," it's just someone who's desperate to sell fake Armani.

(To shake off the most tenacious of that last annoyance, I've found that saying 'not interested' in English a couple of times, followed by something abrupt in Chinese like "你怎么了？", stops them in their tracks.)

Re Chinese scammers being unsophisticated in global terms: Yes, absolutely. Half the Chinese scammers who've tried it on with me just yelled "HELLO HOW ARE YOU I WANT TO PRACTISE MY ENGLISH LET'S DRINK SOME TEA" from a good 30 metres away.

[XuanWu]

 

How's that different from sanlitun in Beijing?

 

Its the No1 tourist attraction in Shanghai. Everyone goes there when you visit this city.  I've been 4 times in Beijing, still didn't go there.

[laogui]

I encountered the Coffee version of the Tea scam.  I had just finished wandering around Tiananmen, 6pm, late October 2012, and was thinking 'mmm I could really go a coffee' when what do you know, a nice neat late 20's woman comes bouncing up and speaks soso English 'sir, do you mind if I practise my English with you 等等等等 may I buy you a coffee?' haha how did she know that's what I was thinking! then another 30ish woman also came bouncing up ... and off we go.  To cut to the chase, a cup off sh**ty coffee cost 750rmb, and I escaped the MTV!  I couldn't cancel the Visa charge, nor could I escape with four guys outside the door.  Two days later I spotted the pair of them in an underpass, they approached me not recognising a laowai since we all look the same  and then fled as I produced my camera asking if their mothers knew how they earned a living

 

Incidentally I suspect ALL the coffee shops in the street were in on the act, because I refused the enclosed room in the first, and insisted on sitting outside, then they moved to another, and asked 3 guys to let us sit outside,  But guess what?  the girl from Harbin said brrrrr too cold out here, let;s go inside.  All our conversation was in Chinese, no English BTW.

Edited February 14, 2017 at 09:32 AM by laogui
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