Grammar terminology

[Johnny20270]

just looked at an online version of that book. It looks good actually. Looks more readable than my one "Basic Chinese Grammar" which is heavy on the grammatical terminology.

[Altair]

Shelley, I think other posters have given excellent advice and would like to add a few bits of my own.

 

I think that books such as Basic Patterns of Chinese Grammar are a pretty good compromise if your focus is on immediately practical knowledge.  Such books teach a lot without having to explain things using too much grammar-heavy terminology.

 

For those who don't mind reading references books, I would also recommend Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar: A Practical Guide by Claudia Ross and Jing-heng Sheng Ma and the approach described in post #19.

 

I personally like grammar-heavy approaches and currently like Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmngton because it seems the most detailed and authoritative; however, it has a great deal of jargon, including some created from scratch, and would not be a good resource for those without some familiarity with terms commonly used in linguistic descriptions.

 

There are couple of things you should keep in mind in your quest.  For several independent reasons, there is a substantial difference between the grammatical terminology typically encountered in discussions of English grammar aimed at English speakers and discussions of Chinese grammar aimed at English speakers.  Don't be surprised if some things don't translate well from one language to the other, or if the same term doesn't seem to have the same range of meaning.  For example, English subjects, predicates, adjectives, and prepositions are not quite the same thing as Chinese topics, comments, stative verbs, and coverbs.

 

Another issue is that many aspects of Chinese grammar--even some basic ones--are not yet completely understood from a linguistic point of view.  These means that many grammar books have explanations that are often overly simplistic or sometimes just plain wrong.  Quite often there is inconsistent terminology as each author creates his or her own framework and has to invent new terms or uses them slightly differently from other authors.  Take most of what you learn with a grain of salt.

[AdamD]

That's a good approach, but i worry skipping the egghead stuff will mean I miss something or not understand it fully.

 

Good point. If I'm not clear about something from context and don't think I ever will be, I spend more time trying to understand that grammatical principle. Otherwise I try to just copy examples until I'm told I'm wrong.

 

I used to spend way too much time staring at the formal rules of grammar, but it got in the way of me using the language. From experience, I reckon the anxiety that it produces is the most insidious barrier to language proficiency.

 

John Pasden has recently written a couple of observational pieces about how kids learn to speak, and why the fact of being a kid is not what makes them great at acquiring language:

 

http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2014/01/23/chinese-grammar-points-used-by-a-2-year-old

http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2014/08/05/why-you-wont-learn-like-a-child

 

Olle Linge wrote this instructive piece a few months ago (in particular, suggesting that you don't let difficult grammar bog you down):

 

http://www.hackingchinese.com/how-to-approach-chinese-grammar/

 

It's hard to let go of the highly structured approach to study, especially for those of us who are dedicated enough to persist with Chinese as a second language, but resisting the adult impulse to understand everything is liberating once you get the hang of it (and once you have the guts to make mistakes in front of strangers). When you're aware of the cadence of a tricky grammatical concept, and you get a grip on what's correct and what's not, you're much better equipped to study the rules that govern it.

[Johnny20270]

 

 

It's hard to let go of the highly structured approach to study, especially for those of us who are dedicated enough to persist with Chinese as a second language, but resisting the adult impulse to understand everything is liberating once you get the hang of it 

 

 

... and that is a very hard thing to do.  Good point Adam. I find this almost impossible as my background is mathematics, engineering, IT etc and I feel its a detriment to my language learning. 

 

I like the John Pasden articles. Interesting view points. I never buy into the argument that an adult should try learn similar to a child learns. This whole concept Rossetta stone and others employ of total immersion in the language like a child's environment (without the need for translation) is nonsense in my humble opinion.

 

An adult does not have a blank slate like a child and brain has developed thought processes over decades. Also emotional characteristics develop and set for life and you become less impressionable as you get older. You cannot undo that unless you had a lobotomy or something  . Hence whey many people are deemed to become 'set in their ways' as they get older 

(I understand that is not what john is saying in his articles)

[AdamD]

Yeah. We should be able to learn more quickly because we know about technique, planning, mnemonics, etc. The childlike aspect is simply having the guts to get things wrong, and to ram your head at the language until you crash through it. I know I've made my best progress when I've had no choice but to do everything in Chinese, regardless of how embarrassing it feels at the time.