不用‘去’了马？

[Pedroski]

Two sentences, both have a funny 去. Can I get rid of 去 here？？？

 

 

 

影片围绕的还是爱情这个古老的主题，但是并没有刻意地去描述浪漫的场面，而是以一种轻松、。。。。

 

。。。，通过这个电影告诉大家，每个人都有权利去恋爱， 但是我们每个人必须珍惜每一次恋爱的机会。

[ZhangJiang]

My attempt to explain (which is not very persuasive even to myself, but hope is helps)

 

去 means "to go" but it clearly doesn't mean "to go physically" here. My feeling is that they mean "to go abstractly, mentally".

 

但是并没有刻意地去描述浪漫的场面: But (they) didn't intentionally try to portray the romantic scenes.

但是并没有刻意地描述浪漫的场面: But (they) didn't intentionally portray the romantic scenes.

每个人都有权利去恋爱: Everyone has the right to love.

每个人都有权利恋爱: Everyone has the right involving love.

[Pedroski]

If I write same sentence without the 去， would you say the Chinese is wrong? Do I really need the 去？？

[ZhangJiang]

Not really wrong, just un-natural

[Pedroski]

Thanks.

 

So you would not write '刻意地描述浪漫的场面' How does that change the meaning??

 

You said 去 means 'go'. That is not quite right. This is easier to explain if you know the German words 'hin' and 'her'. There are a number of old words in English such as hence, thence， whence, whither, hither thither. These are not used much nowadays.

The basic meaning of 'hence' （or German  'hin'） is 'away from where I am now'. “Hie thee hence" = "Hurry you away" = "Go away"

 

'thence' （or German 'her'） basically means 'from somewhere towards me'. Fundamentally, this is the difference between the motion of  'go' and 'come', from your point of view.

 

Modern English has stopped using hence and thence, but German makes full and very good use of 'hin' and 'her', as does Chinese.

 

你过来了吗？来 =  thence, (German her) = from

好的，我过去。去 = hence (German hin) = to

 

But this is not the meaning of 去 in my sentence. I would like to know what it is doing there! I have a large collection of similar sentences.

[MPhillips]

过来 is like "come hither" & 过去 "go thither", nicht wahr?

[Pedroski]

Exactly, 过来 is German 'herkommen' 过去 is 'hingehen' Just things get mixed up, because we sometimes take the other persons position as our standpoint for description of our motion. I'm coming ('coming' is your point of view, not mine) = Spanish voy voy = go go

 

But what about my '去‘？？What is it doing there??

[MPhillips]

Yes, Spanish keeps to the speaker's p.o.v. when it comes to "ir" & "venir". P.S. Just looked up "hither" in E.A. Abott's "Shakespearean Dictionary"--hither is NOT used with verbs of motion （at least not in Shakespeare's diction） because motion is already implied. Apparently no Shakespearean character ever said "come hither"! "Thither" isn't to be found in the online version of this dictionary. I distinctly remember "whither thou goest" from the King James bible though.

[Michaelyus]

http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Using_the_verb_%22qu%22

 

去 representing intention. Not nearly as grammaticalised as English's "going to" with its sense of planning.

[Pedroski]

但是并没有刻意地去描述浪漫的场面

 

www.zdic.net/z/16/js/53BB.htm 7. 去：用在动词后，表示趋向

 

他们没有：去：用在动词前， 表示‘intend’

 

这里的‘刻意’ = 故意吗？

 

Thanks for the link, but I couldn't agree with what they say there: '我 去 工作 。' certainly contains no element of 'I intend to work', nor is it Subject 去 Verb， rather I would interpret 'I am going to work' work = 名词, a place.

 

But yeah, this 去 looks a lot like English so called 'to infinitves' My girlfriend says she would happily leave out 去 in my sentences, without changing the meaning at all.

[ZhangJiang]

I agree that the 去 here represent intention. It implies "start to" or "try to" i.e. with a former state of not doing something changing to the next state of doing it. Without 去, sentences would just mean a more general meaning than that with such a change.

In short sentences without context they may not make that much a difference. But in longer and more complex ones, such as the examples given at the beginning, the nuance does make them more fitting and idiomatic. So I don't agree with "without changing the meaning at all". If it were the case, you wouldn't have a large collection of sentences with "meaningless" components in them.

By the way, thanks for explaining the old English words and pity that I don't know any German.

[imron]

去工作 is a different usage of 去 from the usage in your sentence above.

Once again I'll suggest the guifan dictionary in Pleco which states:

7: 用在动词性短语(或介词短语)与动词之间, 表示前者是方法或态度, 后者是目的

拿着锄头去锄地｜用先进思想去教育学生。

Also, I'm not sure what qualifications your girlfriend has, but native speakers can sometimes be the worst people to ask about their own language (not limited to Chinese native speakers) unless they have specific experience and training for explaining their own language.

[Pedroski]

拿着锄头去锄地

Take the hoe to hoe (the garden)

用先进思想去教育学生。

Use advanced ideas to educate the students.

 

同意了吗？？

 

Or do you think these are:

Take the hoe with the intention of hoeing the garden.

Use advanced ideas with the intention of educating the students.

 

No one has a satisfactory explanation of why the English language began to use the 'to infinitive'. Maybe Chinese can give us some clues. Certainly the syntax is the same.

 

I think English has something similar in: I'm gonna go paint the shed. I'm gonna go tidy up the attic.

 

Girlfriend is sweet, and according to her, knows everything better. I am not convinced, but please don't tell her that! It can be quite useful. She has to do everything, because I can't do it it right!

[MPhillips]

Found there is at least one line in Shakespeare which contradicts Abbott's pronouncement: "I am heartily glad I came hither to you" (from "As You Like It")! I know it's off topic, but perhaps ZhangJiang might be interested.

[Pedroski]

百度 finds a lot under 'come hither', including "come hither, a common sense guide to kinky sex"

 

[MPhillips]

Holy Moses! Reminds me of when I was teaching English to speakers of Spanish, one student asked me the English for "travieso", and the two or three who had already heard the word "naughty" leered at me & made wisecracks when I said it. One of them told me "naughty" was an unseemly word that I shouldn't be teaching them & that "mischievous" is the proper word. I agree that the semantic field covered by "naughty" has been shifting over time--likewise with "come hither"--but does that mean both expressions are now excluded from polite conversation?

[Demonic_Duck]

There's a difference though. "Naughty" is still fairly commonly used in entirely non-sexual contexts (it's all about collocation too, of course - non-gendered "naughty child" isn't sexual, but gendered "naughty boy" or "naughty girl" is). "Come hither" is basically never used in modern English without sexual connotations.

[MPhillips]

Absolutely! But Pedroski同志 brought up German words & their English historical cognates & how to translate "过来" ＆ “过去” into archaic English. Therefore, to anyone learning English out there who might be reading this--unless he or she shares an interest in literary history or linguistics with you--please don't go around saying "come hither" to just anyone you happen to meet! :-)

[Pedroski]

I put the question in 百度。 Do you agree with this guy/girl??

 

zhidao.baidu.com/question/1302698605063731619.html

[MPhillips]

I can't cut & paste with phone and too lazy to type all that--Pedroski同志 could you provide a link?