Popular Post sima Posted September 13, 2014 at 10:21 AM Popular Post Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 10:21 AM Hey everyone I just came across this article written by two members of the FSI. Truly a fascinating read, particuarly points 4 and 10. Here's a copy-paste of some interesting bits Lesson 1. Mature adults can learn a foreign language well enough through intensive language study to do things in the language (almost) as well as native speakers. Diane Larsen-Freeman (1991) has quoted Patsy Lightbown as estimating that young children spend 12,000 to 15,000 hours learning their native languages. At FSI, adult students in a forty-four-week language program spend 1,100 hours in training to achieve a highly significant proficiency level in a new language. They can do this because they have learned how to learn.3 Sridhar (1994), and others have pointed out, mainstream second-language acquisition (SLA) researchers have the “fundamental misconception”—the term is Kachru’s—that the target of foreign language learning is “the idealized native speaker’s competence” (Sridhar 1994:801) or “to use [the language] in the same way as monolingual native speakers” (Kachru 1994:797). Once we identify a more pragmatic goal than “native-like” accent or competence, we can perhaps clarify what we mean by adult language learning—and make it appear more like the learning of other complex skills (McLaughlin 1987). Lesson 2. “Language-learning aptitude” varies among individuals and affects their classroom learning success (but at least some aspects of aptitude can be learned). Lesson 3. There is no “one right way” to teach (or learn) languages, nor is there a single “right” syllabus. Lesson 4. Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear crucial. Language learning is not an effortless endeavor for adults (or for children, for that matter). For the great majority of adult learners, learning a language rapidly to a high level requires a great deal of memorization, analysis, practice to build automaticity, and, of course, functional and meaningful language use. Learning as quickly as possible to speak and understand a language automatically and effectively in a variety of situations and for a range of purposes requires intensive exposure to and interaction with that language. At FSI, we have found that it requires at least four class hours a day—usually more—for five days a week, plus three or more additional hours a day of independent study. Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time. The length of time it takes to learn a language well depends to a great extent on similarities between the new language and other languages that the learner may know well. The time necessary for a beginning learner to develop professional proficiency in each language— proven again and again over a half century of language teaching—cannot be shortened appreciably Focused practice of some kind, including “drills,” appears necessary for almost all language learners to develop confidence and automatic language use Despite what some published research has indicated, for example Brecht, Davidson, and Ginsberg (1993), our experience is that in-country immersion is most effective where the learner is at higher levels of proficiency. There is no substitute for simply spending time using the language. Segalowitz and his colleagues have pointed out how crucial to reading ability is the simple fact of doing a lot of reading (e.g., Favreau and Segalowitz 1982). Our experience at FSI indicates unequivocally that the amount of time spent in reading, listening to, and interacting in the language has a close relationship to the learner’s ability to use that language professionally. Lesson 5. Learners’ existing knowledge about language affects their Learning It appears increasingly clear at FSI that such knowledge helps many learners to be able to progress faster and more surely, and that lack of that knowledge can slow them down. Such concepts may include basic ideas like subject, predicate, preposition, or sentence, but also more language-specific concepts like tone, aspect, palatalization, declension, topicalization, and so on. Knowing such concepts increases the accessibility of such resources as reference grammars, textbooks, and dictionaries, and also serves an important purpose in making adult learners aware of types of language phenomena to watch for Lesson 6. A learner’s prior experience with learning (languages or other skills) also affects classroom learning. If learners already have learned a foreign language to a high level, that is a great advantage in learning another language, regardless of whether or not it is related to the first, but if they do not know how to learn a language in a classroom, that is a disadvantage. Lesson 7. The importance of “automaticity” in building learner skill and confidence in speaking and reading a language is more important than has been recognized by the SLA field over the last two decades SLA – Second Language Acquisition Although techniques associated with audiolingual methodology have been in disrepute since the 1960s and early 1970s, the fact remains that many of our students desire occasional pattern practice. Pattern practice—drill—is a technique that continues to be useful for FSI learners, when used in concert with the various communicative, experiential, and task-based approaches. The importance of promoting automaticity is true for reading as well as speaking. Adults need to read considerable amounts of “easy” material in order to build up stamina and to automatize processing skills…..Without some degree of automatic processing capability, reading becomes a painful decoding process, leaving the reader with little cognitive energy available for understanding and interpretation. Lesson 8. Learners may not learn a linguistic form until they are “ready,” but FSI’s experience indicates that teachers and a well designed course can help learners become ready earlier Lesson 9. A supportive, collaborative, responsive learning environment, with a rich variety of authentic and teacher-made resources, is very important in fostering effective learning. Madeline Ehrman (1998a) has observed that end-of-training comments from students after six to ten months of intensive training at FSI typically mention their teachers as the factor that contributed most to their success in learning. The consistency of such comments is striking…..To accomplish this, Ehrman points out that even the very best adult learners need support, feedback, and mentoring at times from their teachers. The teachers’ abilities to empathize, help the students manage their feelings and expectations, and tune interventions appropriately to the emotional and developmental state of the learners are key factors in many successful learning outcomes. Lesson 10. Conversation, which on the surface appears to be one of the most basic forms of communication, is actually one of the hardest to master Yet of all the tasks graduates carry out at post in the foreign language—articulating policy, conducting interviews, managing offices and local staff—ordinary conversation is the one area of language use in which they unanimously claim to experience the most difficulty, noting specifically problems in following the threads of conversations in multigroup settings. Many officers report that they would much rather give a speech or conduct an interview than be the only nonnative surrounded by native speakers at a social engagement such as a dinner party or reception (Kaplan 1997). Interestingly, such reports appear to fly in the face of some of the assumptions of the language proficiency level descriptions of the Interagency Language Roundtable and ACTFL, which relegate “extensive but casual social conversation” to a relatively low-level speaking skill while raising professional language use and certain institutionalized forms of talk to a higher level. Conclusion Informally, we have observed in the languages that we have worked with that an individual departing for post following training with a borderline professional proficiency (or lower) is very likely to experience attrition. An individual with a strong professional proficiency (S-3 or S-3_) will maintain or improve proficiency, and with advanced professional proficiency (S- 3_ or S-4) will almost certainly continue to improve --------------------------------------- I feel that currently with all the online resources and programs (and persons) claiming to teach languages in a very short time or to make it an 'effortless' process, the FSI's perspective is both eye-opening and, frankly, really encouraging, considering that their servicemen and women are able to eventually grasp their target languge to a functionally native level 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdefg Posted September 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM A huge amount of wisdom there. Thanks for posting. Was particularly interested in the comments about the importance of "automaticity." The importance of promoting automaticity is true for reading as well as speaking. Adults need to read considerable amounts of “easy” material in order to build up stamina and to automatize processing skills…..Without some degree of automatic processing capability, reading becomes a painful decoding process, leaving the reader with little cognitive energy available for understanding and interpretation. Some time ago I got to the place where I no longer had to silently rehearse or think too much about what I wanted to say. My speech is certainly not native or free of mistakes, but it is not hesitant and I do not stumble or need to go real slow. The "extensive but casual social conversation" they talk about is my daily bread and butter. On the other hand, I never got to that happy point in reading where it ceased to be the "painful decoding process" the author talks about. Text messages and menus will always be about my speed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted September 13, 2014 at 01:38 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 01:38 PM Thanks a lot for posting this. It absolutely mirrors my own experiences. With the exception of drills, which I hate. Apparently, I'll have to do more of those! I love the use of brackets in the sentence "Mature adults can learn a foreign language .... (almost) as well as native speakers". It is subtle, but so true. Getting to "almost" native level is hard, but within everyone's grasp. Getting exactly to a native level, though it seems like a small step, is incredibly elusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted September 13, 2014 at 03:43 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 03:43 PM The importance of promoting automaticity is true for reading as well as speaking. Adults need to read considerable amounts of “easy” material in order to build up stamina and to automatize processing skills…..Without some degree of automatic processing capability, reading becomes a painful decoding process, leaving the reader with little cognitive energy available for understanding and interpretation. Some time ago I got to the place where I no longer had to silently rehearse or think too much about what I wanted to say. My speech is certainly not native or free of mistakes, but it is not hesitant and I do not stumble or need to go real slow. The "extensive but casual social conversation" they talk about is my daily bread and butter. I'd be interested to know if you feel you can "[follow] the threads of conversations in multigroup settings" without undue strain. "Extensive but casual social conversation" is easy enough in a one-on-one context, especially where you already know the speaker well. However, every time I find myself thrust into social situations with a large number of native Chinese speakers where I'm the only foreigner present, I find I can't keep up with the conversation at all. A classic example would be when I went on a great wall trip with two Chinese friends and 10 strangers. It was great fun, but I rarely picked up what was going on in the conversation unless I was being directly spoken to. I've also witnessed the same in reverse countless times - when a Chinese person is in a social situation surrounded by English speakers, no matter how competent their English, they tend to drift off and lose the thread, and if I put myself in their shoes I can invariably see exactly why. What hope do they have of picking up on Family Guy references, innuendo-laden jokes, sarcastic commentary on current events, fragments of European languages other than English which are generally known to English speakers, bad imitations of certain regional accents which carry attached social stigma, religious references to religions that aren't Buddhism, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:07 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:07 PM I can relate to the last part too as many others I imagine. In a group where you are the only non native speaker, you lose a lot of non verbal part of the communication that is much needed when you are a learner. We often hear that the non verbal part is the most important one when it comes to communication. While I don't have the number, we all experience it or witness it. For example, for many people, it can become quite challenging when it comes to phone calls of listening to the radio. Most of my French friends who acquired an intermediate/decent English level aren't comfortable with phone calls. Same goes for my Chinese teachers who told me that they try to avoid such situations. The same thing happens in a group, you lose the eye contact, all of the face's features and the gestures you get in a one on one exchange. I sat through many dinners/events where I was the only non native Chinese, most of the times, I only exchanged with my neighbors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renzhe Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:33 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:33 PM Following native speaker discussions at full speed is one thing. Participating in them as an equal is much harder still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic_Duck Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:43 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 04:43 PM I'm not sure I'd agree that you lose non-linguistic cues in group settings, if anything a charismatic speaker in the midst of telling a hilarous anecdote will give out more of said cues when they have an audience. Talking on the phone is different and has its own challenges, but I generally find it still to be a variation on the one-on-one setting. For me, the main added difficulties come from bad reception, noisy environments and the fact you often don't know the speaker or what they're calling about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseneb Posted September 13, 2014 at 11:57 PM Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 at 11:57 PM Re: phone calls - my Chinese coworkers are often bemused by my request that they text or email me instead of calling about any issue that may arise when I'm not in the office. They think that because we can chat about those topics in person, I will be able to do so over the phone as well. I find that much more difficult though, and love love love having it written down where I can double check meanings and make sure I've gotten all the details! Plus I have a bad memory so it's nice to be able to go back and see if that meeting was going to happen on Wed. or Fri..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Posted September 14, 2014 at 12:43 AM Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 at 12:43 AM @Demonic_Duck : I probably rely too much on my own experience. In a large group (+10), there are often smaller groups that are formed. In this case, I can't follow the flow of the discussion when jumping topics and towards who is directed. Unlike in a one on one exchange, the pace is must faster. They won't make the effort to slow down. At some point, the variety of subjects just overwhelmed me faster that what I could expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouyangjun Posted September 14, 2014 at 12:55 AM Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 at 12:55 AM Good stuff. I find this is very similar to my own experience except the teacher part, "comments from students after six to ten months of intensive training at FSI typically mention their teachers as the factor that contributed most to their success in learning". I find I study better on my own... or maybe I've never had a really good mandarin teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sima Posted September 14, 2014 at 01:31 AM Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 at 01:31 AM Good stuff. I find this is very similar to my own experience except the teacher part, "comments from students after six to ten months of intensive training at FSI typically mention their teachers as the factor that contributed most to their success in learning". I find I study better on my own... or maybe I've never had a really good mandarin teacher. On the closing remarks, they metnion: It is sometimes said at FSI that we began forty to fifty years ago with a metaphor of “teaching the course,” but that, as the years have passed and we have understood more, we have moved from that concept to “teaching the class,” to “teaching the students,” to “teaching each student,” to the present metaphor of “helping each student find ways to learn.” My own experience from school and uni is that self-study is overwhelmingly more effective than listening to a teacher, but one difference about FSI's students is that they're highly motivated and so they possibly make much better use of their teachers. I think most of the concepts in foreign language acquisition can be grasped by independent study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdefg Posted September 14, 2014 at 02:48 AM Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 at 02:48 AM @Demonic_Duck #4 -- I do OK with a group of Chinese friends; can follow and participate at normal speed. It has not always been effortless, however. Sometimes at the end of such an outing or event I was exhausted and exhilarated at the same time. I've once or twice told my teachers that it felt like a couple weeks of language practice compressed into several hours. Will admit to being highly motivated in that particular regard and to always throwing myself into such situations on purpose exactly because I wanted to learn to handle them. I sought out those "group conversation" opportunities. I don't mean this as a boast. In other areas my learning has seriously lagged behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysond Posted September 16, 2014 at 06:07 PM Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 at 06:07 PM Great post @sima thanks for sharing. My level would be S/R-2 getting closer to S/R-3. It's interesting to think about the idea of 2200 class hours - in one year that would be 42 hours a week. If you spend 10 hours a week (kind of similar to what I spend in instruction + self learning in a very disciplined week) it's 4.2 years. I really appreciate the focus on the ability of adults to learn... given appropriate time and focus. I think it's something I try to encourage other people with when they struggle, or call me "gifted". I have learned more about perseverance and discipline studying Chinese in my 30s than I did studying at university. The discussion of the importance of teachers is interesting. I feel teachers are critical in giving feedback on 1. Pronunciation (most most most important) 2. Grammar production (very important) and 3. Insight on vocabulary (important but sometimes possible by self learning and immersion environment) and 4. Creating emotional / social connection to the language. If you live in (for example) China #4 is not *as* important because your environment may create this for you. Regarding Automatic Processing Capacity - I am a big fan of this concept. The book "Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow" is an excellent explanation of how the "system 1" (fast thinking) system in your brain is trained and relied upon to do automatic processing. If you understand this idea you quickly understand how drilling (and immersion) "trains" your unconscious systems to do work for you, freeing up your "system 2" (logical deliberate thinking) to consider more important matters. When @abcdefg talks about not having to "think too much" about what to say, it's exactly because "system 1" has been trained to produce speech without requiring mental energy. (same with listening, reading, and eventually writing). Finally, regarding following group discussion. I agree it's super hard. A group of friends or colleagues you know well on familiar topics is not too hard, but a real (for example) dinner where you are the only non-native and you haven't met the people before - it is a mishmash of names (even names of foreign things can be hard), references to ideas you aren't familiar with, slang, jokes, culture, etc. It is both tiring and exhilarating. A fast paced business meeting such as a sales call is equally difficult. My wife has near perfect English as a second language but that doesn't mean she knows which one is C3PO and which is R2D2 (Star Wars), or who Starvin Marvin is (South Park), or that we like both kinds of music, Country and Western (The Blues Brothers). Fortunately she can quote Blackadder quite well. Here's what's the article said about conversation: The properties of ordinary social conversation imply that language learners need to practice at least all of the following: • following rapid and unpredictable turns in topic, • displaying understanding and involvement, • producing unplanned speech, • coping with the speed of the turn-taking, and • coping with background noise. Participants in conversation must at once listen to what their interlocutor is saying, formulate their contribution, make their contribution relevant, and utter their contribution in a timely way, lest they lose the thread of the conversation. Unlike most other typical face-to-face interactions, no individual can successfully “control” a free-wheeling multi-party conversation Actually I do not think this is complete. When talking with Chinese people I have found the cultural knowledge is often more important than the exact vocabulary. There a bit in the paper which talks about "“educated assertive gossip” -- this is very important, but not well explored in this paper. Gossip requires social/cultural knowledge. I have been in situations - such as a homestay - where knowing the latest internet slang or hot story or daily news, or knowledge even the basics of Chinese culture or literature, makes the difference between struggling to follow or being able to keep your end of the conversation. If you know what tigers and flies represent, or who Sun Wu Kong is, or what grass mud horse represents, or the names of some of the hot actors in China -- you are much more able to follow dinner conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted September 16, 2014 at 11:18 PM Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 at 11:18 PM That last point you make is important. Popular culture plays a huge part in learning a language well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sima Posted September 18, 2014 at 06:56 AM Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 at 06:56 AM The discussion of the importance of teachers is interesting. I feel teachers are critical in giving feedback on 1. Pronunciation (most most most important) 2. Grammar production (very important) and 3. Insight on vocabulary (important but sometimes possible by self learning and immersion environment) and 4. Creating emotional / social connection to the language. If you live in (for example) China #4 is not *as* important because your environment may create this for you. I'm starting to think its similar to other fields of study wherein you don't really need a teacher for the basic stuff but once you have a good foundation, it's helpful to have someone guide you through the intermediate phase where there is more uncertainty. This echoes their opinion that immersion has it's maximal benefit only after you've attained a certain degree of proficieny. I particularly like this point since language learners sometimes feel that immersion is a magic solution that will effortlessly boost their competence and that the earlier this is done the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Finster Posted March 23, 2021 at 11:59 AM Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 at 11:59 AM Thought I would bump this thread since I came across it searching the forum. Some of the new members may not have seen it before. Mirrors my own experience. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdefg Posted March 24, 2021 at 03:37 PM Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 at 03:37 PM Some great insights and advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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