Lip shape for Zh, Ch, Sh

[meatie]

For the pinyin consonants pairs c-ch, s-sh, and z-zh,  when going from the first (without h) to the second (with h), besides rolling back the tongue, do I need to change the shape of the lips?

[aone]

NO need. 

[meatie]

So, the lip shape for pronouncing "c" applies for "ch", that for "s" applies for "sh", and that for "z" applies for "zh"?  I have always thought that the lips for "ch", "sh", and "zh" should be more like pouting.  Maybe I am wrongly applying the difference between "s" and "sh" in English to the Mandarin "ch", "sh", and "zh".

[陳德聰]

100% disagree with #2.

 

The lips go through rounding for the zh, ch, sh series unless you intend to pronounce them palatalized like j, q, x.

[meatie]

@陳德聰  Do "ch", "sh", and "zh" involve more rounding/pouting of the lips compared to "c", "s", and "z"?

[陳德聰]

Definitely. I don't think z, c, s require any rounding at all, though I imagine they may be pronounced with spread lips in some cases.

[Hofmann]

Lips are rounded or unrounded depending on the quality of the vowel after them.

[Demonic_Duck]

Agree with Hofmann here. I'd say my lips form the same shape for the “zh” in “张” as they do for the “z” in “脏”, which is different from the shape they form for “卓” or “昨”.

 

Conversely, round your lips too much when you're saying “账” and you'll find you're saying “撞” instead.

[Guest realmayo]

Yep, the most I get is a more open (but not rounded) mouth as my jaw drops a little with a zh/ch/sh/.

Obviously there's rounding if the vowel requires it.

Then again I'm not very diligent about retroflexing.

[陳德聰]

Dissertation that mentions this, search "rounding".

There are a couple more papers and things just titled "lip rounding in mandarin retroflex sibilants" etc. that I don't think are public use but I will see if I can dropbox them off my uni database.

 

Lip rounding is a secondary articulation that is used with the retroflex series as an enhancing gesture, regardless of vowel. It is often referred to labialization rather than rounding since it is not the same amount of rounding as if pronouncing an "u". But that being said, there is optional (in my case it seems habitual) labialization on retroflexes that doesn't result in 帐 > 撞 style issues.

[Demonic_Duck]

That's actually very interesting. Could well be a Taiwan/Mainland (or North/South etc.) distinction there, as I don't think I've ever heard it from Beijingers.

 

I'm not so hot on my linguistic terms, but don't "labialisation" and "rounding" refer to different phenomena, rather than varying degrees of the same phenomenon?

[陳德聰]

Labialization just means "lip-ification" but generally just means rounding if I am not misremembering.

[陳德聰]

Also the notion that lips are rounded based solely on the vowels that follow... If we compare z c s with zh ch sh series for the same vowel "i", it's clear there is more lip activity in the retroflex series. Obviously both have rounding for the vowel "u", but there should be an explanation for the discrepancy.

[Demonic_Duck]

Well, I'll be damned. The way I say them, there's a definite difference in lip-rounding between 子 and 纸, but I'm still pretty sure there's no difference at all for 脏／张 or 昨／卓.

[meatie]

So, the lip rounding/pouting is an unconscious involuntary side effect of the tongue rolling?  I checked a couple of youtube videos demonstrating the pronounciation of c-s-z-ch-sh-zh.  The speaker's mouth appeared to be just slightly rounder/pountier when pronouncing "ch", "sh", and "zh". 

[aone]

Opinion reserved.

 

Meatie asked simply for the pronunciation of the consonants "c-ch, s-sh, and z-zh" instead of "consonants plus vowels".

[陳德聰]

Mhm...

 

K well I am not willing to take pictures of myself so here have some screenshots of the first youtuber I could find named Cheng Yangyang.

 

I can't say I'm a huge fan from having to listen to her talk but she illustrates my point beautifully.

[Altair]

That looks quite convincing.  Here is another youtube video with similar confirmation, at least before pinyin i.

 

Interestingly, at least to me, is that Chinese by Jerry Norman addresses this same issue on page 140, but seems to reach a different conclusion, saying: "Before unrounded vowels, Chinese retroflexes are pronounced with spread lips; this is contrary to the English speaker's habit of pronouncing j, ch, sh and r with slightly rounded lips even before unrounded vowels."

 

At least in my pronunciation, which I am told is close to "standard American," I pronounce an initial r with lip rounding that is clearer more pronounced than with j, ch, and sh.  This realization makes me wonder why Norman treated them all the same.

 

Could Norman have been describing some other standard of Mandarin, such as the so-called "softer" Taiwanese Mandarin that still distinguishes zh, ch, and sh from z, c, and s?

[meatie]

@陳德聰   There is noticeable lip rounding/pouting by Cheng Yangyang when sounding "ch", "sh", and "zh".  But unfortunately, she is NOT a native mandarin speaker.  She grew up in Hong Kong;  Cantonese is her first language.  (I googled her name and found her linkedin page.)  So, her instructional videos must not be trusted completely.

[imron]

I agree with lips being spread for retroflexes before unrounded vowels.