pronounciation question

[Harpoon]

But most pop music comes out of Taiwan, right? And they often pronounce "shi" quite clearly in their songs..

[Altair]

As I understand it, standard Putonghua was first defined by the speech sounds of Beijing, but the grammar and usage of the northern region of which Beijing is a part. This was originally an artificial language standard created by the government in the 30's or 40's that did not actually correspond to the speech habits of any specific community, including Beijing.

Beijinghua apparently has somewhat the status of a New York or London Cockney accent. It is the accent of people in a prestigious part of the country, however the average inhabitant talks with an accent that strikes people from other regions as far from "neutral" and not really appropriate for someone on the evening news. To be accurate, it is not the sounds per se that sound strange, but the speech habits.

R-coloring or 儿化 is a part of the speech habits of the northern region and as such is a part of standard Putonghua; however, all northerners do not employ it to the same degree. Dictionaries vary in showing it, and many dodge the issue by showing it parenthesis.

Beijingers are reputed for employing a lot of R-coloring. For instance, jin1 tian1 ("today") can be pronounced as jinr1. Such pronunciations sound very marked to most Chinese, and apparently can provoke laughter when employed by foreigners. Foreigners everywhere are expected to have neutral accents and can surprise when they speak with a strong regional accent.

As I understand it, R-coloring also goes beyond being an empty feature of the words in which it appears, but actually often adds some nuance of meaning. This nuance (familiarity?, diminitiveness?) is apparently not fully a part of standard Putonghua, where R-coloring is overwhelmingly simply a lexical feature.

When Beijingers speak to people from other parts of the country or want to speak in a prestige way, they apparently try to drop their localisms and reduce their R-coloring. In this way, Beijing speech can rise back up to the level of a national standard that everyone would theoretically want to imitate. There really is no other place that has a better claim to set one. In this way, Beijingers simultaneously set a standard to copy, while often exhibiting features for other regions to avoid. Again, New York and London are similar. A national newscaster from another region would probably not want to imitate the accent of a local bus driver in New York or London while giving a newscast, but would want to imititate the accent of a member of the local artistic, goverment, or business elite speaking in a formal setting.

I think that the official situation in Taiwan is the same as in the mainland, but is greatly complicated by the actual facts on the ground. For instance, northern Chinese use retroflex sounds like the "sh," and "ch," and "zh"; however, these sounds are largely absent from the dialects spoken south of the Yangze River on the mainland (except maybe for in the Southwest). Since these distinctions do not exist in the dialects such people speak at home, people have difficulty forming the sounds and see no reason to maintain what seem like unnecessary distinctions. Most Taiwanese have roots in these dialect areas and so simply use "s," "c," and "z" for these sounds, despite the "official" standard. Since "r" is really also a retroflex sound, many people also have trouble with this sound. This is probably why R-coloring is so much rarer outside of Northern China.

For a Taiwanese to adopt "sh," "ch," and "zh" in daily speech is probably like a U.S. Southerner trying to speak at home like a Yankee, based on the accent he or she hears on national broadcast news. Another example would be someone from Glasgow deciding to speak like a Londoner and start dropping r's he or she would normally roll. It would sound very affected. The person would risk being stigmatized, unless the accent was perceived as really authentic, perhaps because the person was an immigrant.

Failing to distinguish between "n" and "ng" is also a widely spread phenomenon among Chinese dialects and affects the Putonghua of many regions. I get the impression that this is viewed as more regional and less acceptable than failing to distinguish the retroflex consonants. Perhaps some native speakers could comment on how this sounds on the lips of a foreigner.

Another feature that is apparently generally different between northern and southern Chinese is that northern Chinese have minimal pairs where a multiple syllable word is pronounced with full tones in one meaning, but with a neutral tone on one of its syllables in a related meaning. Two examples are 精神 (either "jing1 shen2," meaning "spirit"; "mind"; "consciousness" or "jing1 shen5," meaning "vigor") and 眉目 (either "mei2 mu4," meaning "features"; "looks"; "logic"; "sequence of ideas" or "mei2 mu5," meaning "prospect of a solution." These are lexical features that cannot be picked up by reading, and so southerners generally cannot learn to make these fine distinctions and just ignore them.

If you have a teacher or tutor who speaks with a non-standard accent, I do not think this is inherently a problem, but you may well face the decision of whether you really want to copy an accent that people from other regions may view as quaint or less prestigious. You can try correcting for small anomalies that you think go too far, but you probably can't get away with implying criticism of the way your teacher talks.

If I were advising a Hongkonger wanting to use English in the U.S., I would advise him or her along these lines. Don't worry whether your teacher or tutor distinguishes between "whale" and "wail" or "merry," "Mary," and "marry." Most Americans will not even notice what you do. Don't worry whether your teacher pronounces the "r" in "card" or not. Americans will notice, but are very used to hearing both varieties. Do try to distinguish between "-ing" and "-en," because confusing these two is associated with some strong regional accents that would sound strange on the lips of a foreigner. (E.g., pronouncing "wedding" as "weddin'.") Do try to pronounce "th" accurately. Not everyone does this, especially foreigners, but the ability to do so would be considered by many people as a mark of good pronunciation.)

Issues of accent tend to be very prickly and complex. I hope I have not offended anyone. For those learners who might be struggling with how far to deviate form the official dictionary standard of Chinese, it might be helpful if a native speaker could comment on how much variation sounds okay on the lips of a foreigner outside of the region where the variation originates. For instance, how would it sound to hear 医生 (Yi1 sheng1) pronounced as 医身? Does 厕所在哪 (Ce4 suo3 zai4 nar3) sound essentially neutral, or would it be better for foreigners to say this as 厕所在哪里 (Ce4 suo3 zai4 na3 li3) outside of northern China? Does 这件事儿 sound neutral, or like northern dialect?

[wai ming]

But most pop music comes out of Taiwan, right? And they often pronounce "shi" quite clearly in their songs..

Just my subjective opinion, I often hear Taiwanese pop music which sounds closer to the "neutral" standard than the "Beijing" standard. Sometimes I hear something which sounds somewhere between "si" and "shi", but there is less emphasis on the retroflex sound compared to when a person from Beijing speaks. It's sort of like a slight "sh". Certainly I've heard some singers who pronounce words such as 说 [shuo] and 手[shou] as "suo" and "sou". That said, there are quite a lot of singers who do pronounce the "sh" sound quite clearly.

I can't really comment on the "c/ch" and "z/zh" retroflexes, because I often can't distinguish them clearly when I speak myself (although I know theoretically which should be which).

When I visited Beijing a few years ago (at the height of my Mandarin language learning), people often commented on my 南方口音 [southern accent] - I'm an Australian-born Chinese. Perhaps it was because I spoke Chinese otherwise fairly well - despite not distinguishing between retroflex sounds very well, I still distinguish between -n/-ng and can pronounce most sounds with a standard accent.

People from Malaysia and Singapore, however, never comment on my accent. From my personal experience, I would suggest that to Malaysians and Singaporeans, 厕所在哪 (pronounced "ce4 suo3 zai4 na3" - note, no retroflex -r!) and 这件事 (zhe4 jian4 si4/shi4) would be the normal pronunciation, while older people would often say 医身 for 医生 (younger people who've learnt pinyin will probably pronounce it yi1 sheng1).