Influence of Chinese culture on the rest of the world books and resources

[Bad Cao Cao]

I'd probably start with basic GGS- type information - long east-west rivers (Yellow, Yangtze etc) allowing internal -- livestock, crops, economy, culture -- flow. Terrain allowing canals between the big two rivers to help with important north south flow. Natural presence of rice, millett, soy, beans, water buffalo /plow animals, ducks, carp etc allowing early agriculture on par with fertile crescent, and even exceeding FC in terms of integrated aquaculture etc. Relatively flat not easily balkanised geopgraphy allowing early political + writing unification etc with attendant economic advantages - such that throughout recorded history China has been the dominant economy - eg see this graph - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21623758-chinas-back . Political and economic utility automatically leads to political and philosophical thought - names like Confucius, Mencius, Loazi, Zhuangzi, Hanfei don't even scrape the surface etc. Also allows for a massive leg up on major technology that changed the world - iron casting, paper, printing - again this doesn't cover a fraction of it. Also allows for perceived non-Balkanisation drawbacks, but this also leads to the long game that is only starting to play out. 

[Simon_CH]

 

And there's got to be something wrong with Simon_ch's reasoning.

 

By his reasoning no country has produced any culture of global import other than America and possibly Britain.

 

No Mexican religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No Australian religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No French religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No Canadian religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No Indian religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No German religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No Russian religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

No Polish religion, no philosophy, no literature or music has ever spread across the world.

 

I think your list invalidates your point completely. There are only so many major civilisations that have spawned major religions, but the lack of any major religion out of China is very noticeable.

 

There is no denying the huge influence Indian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism) and related philosophy have had in the world, and there are an increasing number of Indian writers that achieve global fame and success. German, French and Russian philosophy and literature have had a huge impact on today's world, China would be the last country to deny the influence of Marx, Engels and Lenin.

 

Australia is conscious that it has little cultural influence in the world, but AC/DC is still listened to from Argentina to Zimbabwe. And that's exactly my point, given the massive size and importance of China it's cultural success (in terms of cultural exports) is extremely limited.

[mouse]

Simon wants a simplistic, branded, "Made in China" stamp on Chinese influence abroad for it to count. Well, check the labels on your clothes, you might find one.

 

I would have added Chan Buddhism, but as it entered the West via Japan as Zen Buddhism, it doesn't have enough Chinese branding so according to Simon it doesn't count. But surely the Quotations of Chairman Mao has had some influence globally? Or maybe because Maoism was adapted to local circumstances wherever it went (like everything) it also doesn't count? Moreover Maoism derives from Marxism-Leninism, which isn't Chinese, so it really doesn't count. It's almost as if we live in a globalised world where ideas aren't perfectly restricted across state lines...

[Angelina]

Personality cult was originally Maoist and later exported to Korea and Romania. Talking about influence of Chinese culture lol

[mouse]

 

There are only so many major civilisations that have spawned major religions

 

I overlooked this sentence, but just noticed you've revealed the weakness of your argument here. Which "major civilisation" spawned Christianity exactly? Because it wasn't the Holy Roman Empire nor was it the Byzantines. By your reckoning Europe and America are distinctly lacking in this regard as much as China is. Trace all these ideas back far enough and things get so complicated that the idea of "country of origin" breaks down, for the simple reason that the idea of the nation state is a very modern concept. You mentioned India, but Buddhism and Hinduism developed during the Maurya Empire, not India as we understand it today. Of course there's nothing wrong with using a loose concept of national origin when talking about these things, but the problem is you're being loose with every country except China, where you're being very strict.

[Simon_CH]

You're right of course mouse, the question of monotheistic religions' cultural heritage is a tricky one and cannot clearly be attributed to a major civilisation, let alone a modern nation state.

 

But again, my point is that cultural exports (and subsequently cultural influence) is not a question of strict national origin (where does something originally come from, who invented it) but what culture it is associated with. No kid is flying a kite thinking "wow, Chinese culture is great".

 

So Christianity today is largely seen as a Western, European religion to the point where some believers get irritated when you mention its Middle Eastern origin. Christianity is spreading from Europe, and both European culture, history and Christianity are so entwined and interdependent that it is impossible to separate the two.

 

So I'm not trying to be unduly strict with China at all, it's simply that very few cultural exports are associated with China, regardless of its origin/place of invention. If nobody knows it's Chinese it's not a Chinese cultural export.

[Angelina]

Since the idea of a nation state is a modern concept, is it possible to talk Chinese culture and include pre 1912 culture?

How Chinese in the modern sense of the word is the culture that started along the Yellow River Valley ?  

[tysond]

Chinese characters are a very successful cultural export many people get them tattooed on their bodies without even knowing what they mean.

[Simon_CH]

 

Chinese characters are a very successful cultural export many people get them tattooed on their bodies without even knowing what they mean.

 

Great example, hadn't thought of that, very true.

[Basil]

They all mean the same thing when they first get them: cool.

[mouse]

 

Since the idea of a nation state is a modern concept, is it possible to talk Chinese culture and include pre 1912 culture?

How Chinese in the modern sense of the word is the culture that started along the Yellow River Valley ?

 

Is this directed at me? If so, if you read my post again you'll notice I said "Of course there's nothing wrong with using a loose concept of national origin when talking about these things". Your questions are the stuff PhDs are made of.

 

 

If nobody knows it's Chinese it's not a Chinese cultural export.

 

Like I said, you're too focused on brand recognition. If you exclude anything that ignorant people aren't aware of, then instead of discussing the influence of Chinese culture, all you're talking about is what ignorant people don't know.

[Simon_CH]

 

Simon wants a simplistic, branded, "Made in China" stamp on Chinese influence abroad for it to count. Well, check the labels on your clothes, you might find one.

 

I would have added Chan Buddhism, but as it entered the West via Japan as Zen Buddhism, it doesn't have enough Chinese branding so according to Simon it doesn't count. But surely the Quotations of Chairman Mao has had some influence globally? Or maybe because Maoism was adapted to local circumstances wherever it went (like everything) it also doesn't count? Moreover Maoism derives from Marxism-Leninism, which isn't Chinese, so it really doesn't count. It's almost as if we live in a globalised world where ideas aren't perfectly restricted across state lines...

 

Again a confusion of origin and cultural association. It doesn't matter where chan or zen buddhism originally came from, it matters what country it is associated with: Japan. Same with ramen, karate or what have you...

 

I can't think of a single quote by Mao off the top of my head, and I consider myself well-read. Reading famous quotes I recognised many but that's only because I am interested in Chinese history. But be that as it may, Maoism is a cultural export of sorts, and it had some success in parts of Asia mainly.

[Simon_CH]

 

Like I said, you're too focused on brand recognition. If you exclude anything that ignorant people aren't aware of, then instead of discussing the influence of Chinese culture, all you're talking about is what ignorant people don't know.

 

It's not ignorant to not not associate kites with China, just as it's not ignorant to not associate tomatoes with the Americas. It simply is not a cultural export once a product looses it's cultural associations.

 

I really seem to reiterate that simple point over and over again even though it's not contentious at all.

 

A Chinese tattoo is associated with Chinese culture even if it reads "fried chicken rice" and the origins of writing stuff on your forearm isn't Chinese at all.

[mouse]

It is literally ignorant, which was my meaning.

 

I think we've reached an impasse with this. However I will give one last example before leaving it be. By your logic, a "Chinese lucky cat" is a popular Chinese cultural product, because many people erroneously associate it with China rather than where it actually came from (Japan). While the relative lack of awareness of Chinese history and culture is indeed notable, that ignorance doesn't suddenly make China's influence on the world disappear.

[tysond]

The Art of War is a highly successful cultural export from China. It would be hard to find a single military commander or businessperson who has not at least heard of it and perhaps have a copy on their bookshelves.

I would say fireworks also get a good level of recognition of being Chinese. Silk and porcelain of course...we even call it China. The qipao and Mao suit. Dim sum. Peking duck. Chinese water torture. Chopsticks. Chinese fans.

Fengshui. Confucius says. TCM has people studying it outside china.

Finally, the Chinese and Chinese disaspora themselves are surely counted as some significant fraction of humanity themselves.

[Angelina]

Standardized testing 

[Angelina]

Worse than Chinese water torture haha

[Kobo-Daishi]

Australia is conscious that it has little cultural influence in the world, but AC/DC is still listened to from Argentina to Zimbabwe. And that's exactly my point, given the massive size and importance of China it's cultural success (in terms of cultural exports) is extremely limited.

 

Limited Schmited. You made it appear that Chinese culture has no success. And try to downplay or dismiss any success.

 

As for your AC/DC example. I could use your argument that you used against Chinese food.

 

About how it's loss in popularity in recent years to dismiss it outright, even though there are more Chinese restaurants in the United States than there are McDonald's, Burger Kings, Wendy's, Domino's, Pizza Huts combined. And according to this old February 9, 2010 Daily Mail article titled "Chinese food beats British, Thai and even Indian curry to become nation's favourite cuisine". It relates how Chinese food had taken over from Indian cuisine to become Britain's favorite. Though I believe Indian cuisine has since regained its lead. But being no. 2 still ain't bad.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1249370/Chinese-food-beats-British-Thai-Indian-curry-nations-favourite-cuisine.html

 

Chinese food is eaten from Argentina to Zimbabwe

 

AC/DC were hugely popular at one time, but, what have they done lately. And have any new groups from Australia appeared in recent times.

 

No kid, with obviously bad taste, rocking to one hit wonder AC/DC is going to think wow! Aussie culture.   

 

Kobo.

[MPhillips]

"Highway to Hell" is my favorite song to drive to (keeps me nervous--US's highest vehicular homicide rate here--gotta stay on my toes). Also one of AC/DC's songs is the only piece of music I know of to feature a cannon being fired (besides "The 1812 Overture").

Where, o where is the Chinese rock group who can compare?!!

[Angelina]

Tofu.

 

(Vegemite didn't spread   as far as tofu did)