The 偷拍 phenomenon

[tooironic]

The other day a Chinese friend on my WeChat posted a photo he had taken in a hospital of a teenage patient who had undergone some kind of surgery. The photo was of the boy lying on the hospital bed, with a number of staff standing around him, all backs turned to the camera. My WeChat friend, who works at the hospital, gave some information about the boy's condition and what he had gone through, the specifics I cannot remember. But I remember thinking what a violation of privacy this post was. I voiced my concerns to my friend who said that he didn't matter because no one's identity in the photo could be revealed, but my gut instinct told me there was something just wrong about it. What do you think?

I see this as part of a larger trend in Chinese society. The Chinese, by and large, love taking photos, and it seems to be acceptable to photograph anything as long as it's in a public space. In Australia though there is a bit of unease associated with photographing people you don't know in public, and especially minors. At the very least, it goes without saying that you ask their permission first. But quite a few of my Chinese friends have showed me photos of people (almost always Westerners) they have photographed without their knowledge. This I suppose is evidence of the so-called 偷拍 phenomenon. I know I have been a victim of 偷拍 at least once in China, but probably more than that, and I use the word "victim" because the whole idea of someone I don't know holding a photo of me really creeps me out.

But who's in the right here? If you're in public is it reasonable to be photographed by people you don't know, inadvertently or otherwise? Are Australians (or Westerners) too uptight about this? Or is the issue more complicated than this? Would love to hear your thoughts.

[skylee]

Do you mean only the Chinese people do it (the "phenomenon")? People in other countries (or the "western" world) don't?

[tysond]

In general, laws on privacy in Australia are at least a decade in front of laws on privacy in Asia (if there even are any laws at all).  In Australia you'd be hung at dawn for distributing lists of names, addresses and phone numbers but in much of Asia trading personal information is not even illegal, or has only become illegal in the last few years.  Overall awareness of rights such a privacy is a long way down on the list of people's immediate concerns.

 

Friend of mine ran a bar in Beijing with a big sign out the front saying "No Photographs". He's Australian and felt it was inconsiderate of the patron's privacy to allow people to take shots in through the window.   Day after day, people would take photographs.   He'd often point at the sign while they were doing it, but it did not stop many (maybe 20% would be embarrassed and put their camera away).  There must be thousands of photos out there of his bar, with him in the shot pointing at a sign that says No Photographs.  So I think a lot of people don't give a damn about the opinions of a stranger, they just take photos as they wish. 

 

I have no issue taking a shot of a street scene with people in it, but if it's going to be close enough to see their faces very clearly, I ask permission.  People playing chess/mahjong/cards on the street are great photos but I want to give them a chance to hide the money a bit first :-).  My wife isn't western, and wasn't brought up with the same level of concern for permission on privacy, and a few times she's been told off for taking photos as she wishes.   A few months ago my wife tried to take a candid, no permission asked, photo of an older Chinese guy in the hutongs sitting outside in his Beijing Bikini, and his wife ran out of the house and started screaming at her not to take a photo.  So it's not as if the "victim" doesn't care (or his wife!).  She's a bit more careful now and makes me go ask for permission on her behalf.

 

Who is right?  You must be still in your early stages of being in China if you are still asking such questions :-)

[anonymoose]

I've been 偷拍ed many times in China, and I've seen other foreigners being 偷拍ed also. But another phenomenon, which is perhaps even more irritating, is that some people don't even bother with the 偷 part. Seeing a foreigner they just stand a couple of metres away, with their huge Canons, as though they're taking a photo of a flower or something. I never know what to do in that situation. My first instinct is to cover my face with my hand, but giving that unwelcoming signal also feels awkward given that the person taking the photo is likely just thoughtless rather than malicious.

[tooironic]

@skylee Of course I'm not saying that Westerners never 偷拍 but I've never noticed it being something that is commonly done, in the same way that you can't say that Westerners never spit in public, but they certainly don't do it as frequently as Chinese do. Though when my Chinese friends ask me what I do when I have a buildup of phlegm I never know what to say, but I guess it rarely happens in Australia since our air is so clean.

@tysond You're right on the money re the difference in privacy laws, or lack thereof in China and other Asian countries. I've had my contact details given out to other Chinese people many times. Again, it seems the Chinese have no concept about what constitutes privacy. I'm not saying this is necessarily good or bad, just stating fact, just like how Westerners have no idea what 上火 is. It's interesting though that your Chinese wife has had Chinese react negatively to her attempt of 偷拍ing. (edit: you didn't actually specify your wife was Chinese, perhaps you could clarify this) It reminds me of one time when I was in a town somewhere in South China when I was told off for trying to take a photo of an old man and his goat. I wouldn't do the same thing now as I realise it's a breach of privacy, but it just goes to show that the Chinese like anyone else do not appreciate being photographed by complete strangers.

@anonymoose I never know how to react either. The whole situation feels really awkward, and like you said it's not as if the other party has any bad intentions.

[abcdefg]

All of us who live on the mainland get photographed plenty by security cameras, though I realize that's not the same thing.

[tooironic]

I don't think it's the same thing, and security cameras are ubiquitous in many parts of the Western world - London, for example, is one of the most heavily surveilled cities in the world.

[abcdefg]

I agree it's not the same thing.

 

When traveling (in China) I take lots of casual photos (no fancy gear) and when I'm close enough to someone to do so, I hold up the camera and say or mouth 可以吗？If they nod, smile, or say yes, that's good enough for me to proceed.

 

If I want to photograph kids, I ask a parent.

[OneEye]

That only happened to me a handful of times during the three years I lived in Taiwan, and usually "請不要擅自拍照" did the trick without making me look like the angry foreigner.

 

at least a decade in front of laws on privacy in Asia (if there even are any laws at all)

 

I wouldn't lump all of Asia under one category like that. Japan takes privacy extremely seriously. When I first moved here and went to open a bank account — a joint one with my wife, as is fairly common in the US — I was advised by the banker that we "should" open separate accounts. I figured “When in Rome," so we did. I found out later about hesokuri [臍繰り], which are secret stashes of money that women keep hidden from their husbands (and sometimes vice versa), often tens of thousands of dollars' worth, and part of the reason for the banker encouraging us to open separate accounts. When burglaries happen, which is rare, the police apparently ask the wife, "Can you tell us in front of your husband how much was stolen?"

 

Also, more pertinent to this thread, you can't silence the shutter noise on an iPhone purchased in Japan, and presumably other phones too. There's apparently a law that says that that sound can't be disabled.

[Kelby]

I was at a bar the other night with my wife while there were some Chinese people photographing some western girls who were dancing across the bar. They were using the phone's flash and everything which was blinding and eventually lead to an altercation started by one of our less patient friends.

 

Although the western girls being photographed were oblivious, there was a whole lot of talk in the ensuing argument about how there's apparently recourse for sneaking photos of people and using them inappropriately. While I'm not sure how legit this is, both the owner and one of my Chinese friends were adamant about this and pressing the issue got us an apology from the other group. 

 

I've had another situation like this where a stranger took a photo of my wife, friends, and I at a restaurant and sent a Weibo about the restaurant. When my wife called both the sender and the restaurant out on essentially using us for advertising without our permission the posts were promptly deleted, which makes the think there's some grounds to, or at least agreement that, 偷拍'ing someone is an inappropriate if not wrong thing to do.  

[XuanWu]

In my opinion, in China the term "privacy" does not exist. Because of this many things might anoy someone the first days( or months) of his arrival in China.

I dont think it is a matter of right and wrong.

If you are born and raised in China, its natural to take photos of everything and anyone. But in western countries its a no-no.

In my country if you do that to young men or women, you will probably be beaten severely..

 

As a foreigner in mainland China, when you walk in the streets you feel like a superstar. People look at you(sometimes like an alien),smile at you, talk to you and ofcourse take picture of you.

I try to enjoy it as ,there is nothing else you can do about it! And to tell the truth most of the times is like it!

Just sometimes if am tired, or i am eating a hamburger

and i have opened my mouth wide open to bite it and i notice that they are taking a photo of me, i will get angry just for a sec.

In these cases i calm me down, saying to my self."hey, if this was a beautiful chinese woman, that would like to take a picture of you,

would you say no and get angry?"

 

One day i was traveling with the train and i was looking the view from the window.Then i turned my head straight and looked in the wagon.

There was an old lady, who was holding patienly her smart phone with her 2 hands on her feet, waiting for me to turn my head to take a good clean photo.

When i turned my head, she lifted her hands and took her photo. I must be staring out of the window for more than 20 minutes...

At least, after a while she came and asked me where i am from and encouraged me to get something to eat from the train station we stopped.

 

oh, it gets better..

 

Another beautiful day , i visited the mountain with a friend, and after about 2 hours of wandering up the mountain. My friend told me,

"this woman is following us since the beginning we arrived".

"really?" i replied. I didnt notice it at all. She couldnt take it anymore and she asked her,

"Why you are following us?" she simply replied, "I just like foreign men".

After a while as i started recalling , how many moments we had with her next to us, i solved the puzzle.

She was impressed by my bear! She was pretending that she was talking in the phone as she was walking to my left and right,

swapping like a jet fighter taking close ups on my bear..

 

If she would asked me , i would even let her pet me.

 

Although my friend was furious, i was laughing, as i never had a female stalker before

 

What i like mostly in this situation is that we also get to photo everything we want, as China is a living canvas and always, always there is a good photo to take

wherever you look. and personally i prefer the interaction with the people, instead being in a country that nobody notice you or even look at you nasty, making you feel lonely and unwanted.

 

Pouah! People dream one day to become superstars.. Come one week in mainland China!

[陳德聰]

As far as I know, in my country and in other Western countries, there is no expectation of privacy in a public space. This may be different from folk understandings of the law, as I've noticed some people seem to think they have the right to demand others delete photos taken of their likeness, but I don't think that really changes much.

 

I think it's possible that in the West, there is just more of a tendency to believe that we have the right to demand things of others. On a personal level as well as on an international and political level.

 

If you don't like being photographed, just tell people. I often, albeit very rudely, tell people to stop staring at me. If I caught someone taking pictures of me as if I were an animal in a zoo, I would either take a picture of them back or glare or say something like "I don't like being photographed."

[Meng Lelan]

If I want to photograph kids, I ask a parent.

 

 

 

When I took my three boys to China, we noticed the locals would try to take pictures of the boys without asking me, so the boys learned very quickly to say 不要 and turn their faces away quick. Though the ones who did ask permission, would ask the boys directly!

[grawrt]

omg.. this is so annoying!

My recent experience was yesterday me and my friend went hiking, and we see this guy taking a picture of us, but we're used to it so we just turn the other way but then he sprints to the other side to take another picture, and we're already annoyed so we start walking away from him because he's bugging us. We're climbing up a narrow area of the mountain when suddenly we look up and the guy is right there (not sure how he got up there so fast? Sprinted? who knows) but it was very obnoxious. I felt like an animal at a zoo.

Afterwards me and my friend spotted him later, still trying to take pictures of us so we walked up to him and snapped a shot of him right up in his face. Hes like whaaa? what are you doing? All surprised. But yknow. I wouldn't recommend this route. Guys get creepy really fast he started hitting on us so our group leader scowled at him and told him to beat it.

But yesterday having gone on a hiking trip with Chinese kids I can understand the 偷拍 phenomenon a bit. It's not really anything to do with being sneaky. I think Chinese people have just become so accustomed to always taking pictures of everything while they're out that taking pics of foreigners or people in hospital beds seems like the norm. I cant explain how many times we stopped to take a group picture (even in the same place we started the trip in the same pose). It was ridiculous. More people were interested in taking pictures than actually hiking. I was so upset that because a mass majority whined about going up the mountain top that we had to start going back down.

 

btw, I discussed this with my friend. We both agreed that had anyone done this in our countries they would have their ass kicked.

[Meng Lelan]

 I think Chinese people have just become so accustomed to always taking pictures of everything while they're out that taking pics of foreigners or people in hospital beds seems like the norm.

 

 

 

This. Yes. I remember that my first time to China back in the 1980s everyone was constantly whipping out endless photo albums. Guess China is still like that. What's ironic is now I'm working in deafblindness where photos and taking pictures are completely meaningless to my clients. I like it that way. 

[Chris Two Times]

Also, more pertinent to this thread, you can't silence the shutter noise on an iPhone purchased in Japan, and presumably other phones too. There's apparently a law that says that that sound can't be disabled.

 

My understanding is that this law is to prevent guys (ちかん) from taking upskirt photos on crowded trains. When people hear the shutter noise, they know something's up.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Chris Two Times]

Afterwards me and my friend spotted him later, still trying to take pictures of us so we walked up to him and snapped a shot of him right up in his face. Hes like whaaa? what are you doing? All surprised. 

 

I love it. "It's not so cool when the tables have turned, now is it, Mr. Wanna-Be Paparazzi Man."

 

But yknow. I wouldn't recommend this route. Guys get creepy really fast he started hitting on us so our group leader scowled at him and told him to beat it.

 

 

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[OneEye]

My understanding is that this law is to prevent guys (ちかん) from taking upskirt photos on crowded trains. When people hear the shutter noise, they know something's up.

 

Sure, that's the easy (and lazy/stereotypical) thing to assume, but I've been assured by multiple people, both Japanese and long-term foreigners, that the law has more to do with privacy in general than with perverts on the train.

[Chris Two Times]

Why lazy and stereotypical? Isn't this issue of chikan on trains and "camera voyeurism" connected to the larger issue of privacy in general anyway?

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times