Three goals, unsure how to proceed

[Lu Dongbin]

Hello everyone, I just signed up to the forum today and wish to start by asking for advice on my current situation, plans, and goals. To be brief, I would like to accomplish three goals which are very important to me: 1) Learn Mandarin, 2) Teach English in China, and 3) Earn a degree in China or Taiwan.

 

As of now, I only have some college under my belt and have been learning Mandarin on my own through Pimsleurs, flashcards, watching historical dramas, and so on. I have heard that one can teach English in Mainland China without a degree and just a certification, which is why I would like to earn a CELTA certification in order to do just that. Ideally, I'd like to find a way to teach English as a means to survive, learn Mandarin, and obtain a degree of some sort, mainly for the ability to teach English legally in more places abroad. My issue is that, while I know what I want, I am unsure how to proceed. Even if it would require living a spartan existence and being "under the table" as it were, if I could accomplish my goal of teaching while studying, I'd be happy. Perhaps it would be better to look for scholarships (though I am 25, so might be a bit late for that) or other means to earn a degree first or a language program? I admit I am quite confused and have been unable to come up with a concrete plan to realize my goals.

 

The one thing I do not want to do is to wait and earn a degree here where I live (the United States) before setting out for these goals, both for the amount of time it would push back my goals and for the costs of attending university here in the US, which is why I don't have a degree in the first place.

 

If anyone can offer me any advice, input, or tell me the best way to realize my aforementioned goals, I'd be very much obliged.

 

Thanks.

[ChTTay]

I am not sure where you have been looking. These days, even if you have a CELTA, you will find it very tough to find legal employment as an English teacher in China without a degree. This has been a requirement for sometime but, certainly over the last year or two, regulations have tightened up somewhat. It would be very hard to find any work in a major city with a decent number of foreigners already. If there is any chance, it would be somewhere more 'off the map'. Even then, it might be difficult.

If you ended up studying on a degree or language program, it may be possible to find some teaching work on the side. Again though, some employers might not be interested if you don't have a degree, depending which city you are in though. Others would just ask you to lie about it.

Aren't most degree programs in China still taught in Chinese? If this is the case, you'd need to reach HSK5 level before they let you in. That would mean a pretty intensive language study period to get yourself up to scratch. Even then, it might be pretty hard going, although i'm sure your Chinese would be pretty good by the end of it all.

Also, what would you want to study in China? From the above, it seems you just want a degree to be able to teach English. Could you do a language degree? A bachelours in Chinese?

[hedwards]

You'll need a CELTA, TESL or similar, a 4 year degree of some sort and 2 years of relevant experience in order to teach English in China. Or at least at reputable schools, there may be some that will take people with less, but they're less likely to be reputable. If you can afford it, a CELTA is quite good.

 

Those are more or less mandatory to get the Z-Visa that you're going to need to teach professionally. There's also the F-1 cultural exchange visa, but there's restrictions on compensation and I don't think you can get more than room and board plus a small stipend like that.

[Lu Dongbin]

Thanks for the replies.

 

 

 

I am not sure where you have been looking. These days, even if you have a CELTA, you will find it very tough to find legal employment as an English teacher in China without a degree. This has been a requirement for sometime but, certainly over the last year or two, regulations have tightened up somewhat. It would be very hard to find any work in a major city with a decent number of foreigners already. If there is any chance, it would be somewhere more 'off the map'. Even then, it might be difficult. 

You'll need a CELTA, TESL or similar, a 4 year degree of some sort and 2 years of relevant experience in order to teach English in China. Or at least at reputable schools, there may be some that will take people with less, but they're less likely to be reputable. If you can afford it, a CELTA is quite good.

 

Yes, this is where I've heard contradictory information and wasn't sure what the case actually was. On the one hand, I heard that the official regulations you both have mentioned are indeed the legal requirements, but then I've heard that this is a bit more relaxed outside the major cities and have seen many advertisements on places like Daves ESL Cafe job board which state "no degree required"... how legitimate those advertisements are is another question. My neighbor just returned from teaching in China for 5 years and told me that he knew many who were teaching without a degree, so I figured it might be a possibility.

 

As to the degree, you are correct in that the only reason I want a degree is to be able to legally teach English in China and Taiwan, or elsewhere in Asia, Eastern Europe, etc. Again, this sole motivating reason along with the exuberant costs of attending university in the Untied States (as well as a desire to not go into massive debt) is why I haven't earned one yet and don't wish to here in the US. I've heard from people that earning one in China or Taiwan is cheaper than the US, and I figured I might be able to also teach in some capacity while doing so, but as to whether there are any programs in English or whether I should first enroll in a language program is something I am unsure about and was hoping to clarify here on this forum. I do have other reasons for wishing to learn Mandarin and get to China aside from pursuing employment as an English teacher, which is for me just a means toward studying my real interests.

 

I apologize if it seems I am coming from a position of ignorance, which I am, but again I've heard contradictory information on teaching as well as earning a degree which is why I was hoping to obtain some clarity and direction here. My only fear is that my dreams are entirely unrealistic and that there is no way for me to accomplish these goals in my current position. Perhaps pursuing some Mandarin language program (I've heard there are scholarships for these) and thereafter pursuing a degree might be a better entryway than attempting to find work with just a CELTA? I am willing to pursue any workable path toward accomplishing these three goals.

 

Any further ideas or input is appreciated. Thanks again.

[imron]

Perhaps pursuing some Mandarin language program (I've heard there are scholarships for these)

Yes there are.  Do a search for 'scholarship' on the forums and you'll find all the related threads.

[abcdefg]

I do have other reasons for wishing to learn Mandarin and get to China aside from pursuing employment as an English teacher, which is for me just a means toward studying my real interests.

 

May I ask, what are those real interests?

[Lu Dongbin]

 

 

Yes there are.  Do a search for 'scholarship' on the forums and you'll find all the related threads.

 

Alright, I will certainly do that, though are adults my age eligible? (I suppose I will probably find out through reading through the threads.)

 

 

 

May I ask, what are those real interests?

 

Sure. My interests are varied, but primarily I am interested in studying Daoism (Quanzhen), Chinese Buddhism, Qigong/Daoyin/Taijiquan, the guqin, and of course Mandarin itself, which should allow me to read a variety of material which interests me, such as matter dealing with the previously mentioned topics but also Chinese poetry, the great classical novels, and so on. I've long been inspired by the documentary film by Edward Burger, "Amongst White Clouds" and would like to meet and study under similar figures as those in his film, from the Zhongnan mountains or elsewhere, however rare of a breed they may be today. Beyond that though, actually acquiring the skill, experience, and necessary qualifications to teach English as a foreign language in general (whether in China or elsewhere) is an interest of mine, so all them converge into the goals described in my initial post.

[ChTTay]

"You'll need a CELTA, TESL or similar, a 4 year degree of some sort and 2 years of relevant experience in order to teach English in China."

 

You can still get by with an online TEFL whereby you essentially pay for a piece of paper to meet the requirement.

 

Also, the degree part isn't necessarily 4 years but it should be a Bachelours. In England, most BA's are 3 years.

 

If I were you, I would pick something you actually have an interest in to study a degree in. Otherwise it will be a long, long 3-4 years. So, ABCDEFG asks a good question... what are your interests?

 

The main problem with your goals, as I see it, is that you are unlikely to find a decent job here without a degree. Studying a degree in China is likely to be in Chinese (so you'd need language study first). That would suggest step one would be applying for a language scholarship or working in the U.S for a while so you cound fund yourself. Once on the program, working your arse off to reach a level good enough for a degree in Chinese.

[abcdefg]

Welcome to the forum, and good luck!

 

My interests are varied, but primarily I am interested in studying Daoism (Quanzhen), Chinese Buddhism, Qigong/Daoyin/Taijiquan, the guqin, and of course Mandarin itself, which should allow me to read a variety of material which interests me, such as ... Chinese poetry, the great classical novels, and so on.

 

Those things all look like they would make interesting hobbies. Seems what you need to think more about is some way to make a living long term. In other words, a career.

[oceancalligraphy]

I think the language scholarships from Taiwan do not have age restrictions or an university degree requirement.  I would recommend the websites Taiwan Fellowships & Scholarships and Study in Taiwan. There are forum members who have received scholarships to study in Taiwan, and would probably be able to help if that's where you decide on going.

[hedwards]

CHTtray, I know that, but I can't spell the name of the typical degree for that level. Anyways, a 4 year degree is superior, those programs are not 1 year more efficient, they cut out a lot of important stuff to make it a 3 year program.  But you are right that in some parts of the world it's really just 3 years.

 

@Lu Dongbin, I could be wrong, but when schools hire people with less than what the government requires for a Z-Visa, I'd be suspicious about how they went about getting the appropriate stamps on the application. Also, those online TEFL programs are usually not worth the paper they're written on. Sure they'll nominally get you "qualified" but good luck when you get into the classroom and don't know what you're doing. Even with my 24 credit program, I was still barely holding my own the first couple weeks. I can only imagine how it would go for somebody who didn't have an extensive program and related knowledge to fall back on.

[grawrt]

I think you could do your degree in China with classes in English.

Many of the IR students in my classes have their classes in english. They take chinese language classes as well. This is in BLCU but as one of my classmates said "don't go to BLCU for an IR degree" lol.

Also wanted to mention if you come to study I think you could easily get part time jobs tutoring english. I've bumped into plenty of wandering parents on my campus asking if I'd be interested. Today some lady asked me if I was interested in teaching her daughter on the weekends. These parents are a bit clueless where to advertise or how so I don't think they get many takers, which is good for you. I've never done it before but the children are usually young so I don't think you'd need to teach them anything fancy. In the beginning of the semester there was also a bunch of advertisements from U-Center looking for people to do recordings for books (in any language). Again, I didn't do it but I think in Beijing there are plenty of opportunities to find these types of jobs.
 

[gato]

My interests are varied, but primarily I am interested in studying Daoism (Quanzhen), Chinese Buddhism, Qigong/Daoyin/Taijiquan, the guqin, and of course Mandarin itself, which should allow me to read a variety of material which interests me, such as matter dealing with the previously mentioned topics but also Chinese poetry, the great classical novels, and so on. I've long been inspired by the documentary film by Edward Burger, "Amongst White Clouds" and would like to meet and study under similar figures as those in his film, from the Zhongnan mountains or elsewhere, however rare of a breed they may be today.

You should look at your Chinese-language learning goals realistically. To be able to read and understand most native materials on Daoism and Buddhism (especially pre-1949 material) would require 4-10 years of full-time and very dedicated study (i.e. more than 10 hours per day, everyday). The same goes for classical novels.

As for meeting real-life Daoism and Buddhism practitioners, you rightly said that they are scarce in mainland China today. You will have better luck in Taiwan, I think. A very sizable percentage of the public in Taiwan are practicing Buddhists, much, much more than in mainland.

[ZhangKaiRong]

I can fully agree to gato. Your goals are not realistic on short-term, but realistic on long-term.

 

And if you go to the mainland, you will be really disappointed in the "ancient Chinese culture" - there is a huge discrepancy between the China you imagine and the real China.

[imron]

would require 4-10 years of full-time and very dedicated study (i.e. more than 10 hours per day, everyday)

I agree it would take very dedicated study, but I think 10 hours per day every day for 4 years is probably too much and in fact would be counter productive (there's only so much concentrated language learning you can do before burning out).  4-5 hours a day for that length of time is probably more realistic.

 

I'm also reminded of a story:

 

A martial arts student went to a teacher and declared he wanted to learn the system, he was devoted and ready. How long would it take? The teacher replied: “Ten years.”

The student, a bit impatient and not satisfied with the answer went ahead and said: But I want to master it faster than that, I will work hard every day, practice 10 or more hours a day if necessary. How long would it THEN take? The teacher replied: “Twenty years.”

[gato]

I agree it would take very dedicated study, but I think 10 hours per day every day for 4 years is probably too much and in fact would be counter productive (there's only so much concentrated language learning you can do before burning out). 4-5 hours a day for that length of time is probably more realistic.

At 4-5 hours per day, it would take at least 10 years.... Not saying that 10+ hours is advisable for most learners. It'll take special talent to be able to sustain that much studying for a long period.

[anonymoose]

Well, Julian Gaudfroy claims he studied all day every day for 5 years. But then, you probably don't need to be as good as Julian to read modern texts in any subject. So it can be done.

[Lu]

I agree with others, you might want to try Taiwan instead. The Ministry of Education (MOE) used to have, and for all I know still has, a good scholarship program to learn Chinese, and if I'm not mistaken also for further studies after that.

Buddhism and Taoism as very much alive in Taiwan. There are neighbourhood temples, shamans, and all kinds of monasteries, all in serious business, and many of the monasteries will be happy to take you on for classes, often for little or no money. I'm afraid I don't know any details, but I have acquaintances who have done this. Perhaps see if there is a Buddhist or Taoist group near you and ask if they have any connections there.

No idea what kind of career you might get out of that, but no harm in trying to follow your interests for a bit and see where they take you.

[tysond]

have seen many advertisements on places like Daves ESL Cafe job board which state "no degree required"... how legitimate those advertisements are is another question. My neighbor just returned from teaching in China for 5 years and told me that he knew many who were teaching without a degree, so I figured it might be a possibility.

 

 

Sure, people work illegally in China.  If your work permit isn't legit, or if you are working without one, anyone who knows about this has leverage over you, including your employer.  If a school is employing people illegally, it's not a good sign of them following other rules, such as honoring your contract, paying you your salary, etc.  Some people survive, some people end up with difficult circumstances, some have bad stories.

[ChTTay]

@Hedwards - They haven't "cut stuff out" ... in England, they've been three year BA's for as long as I know. My Dads degree WAAAYYY back was 3 years.

 

OP - I agree with everyone else here, you should try to take a more long term view of this. Your goals are pretty big, it will take some time....