Three goals, unsure how to proceed

[Lu Dongbin]

Well thanks everyone for the replies, I will take all everyone has said into consideration and try to refine my plans further. That said, I will reply to some of the replies for clarification purposes:

 

 

 

Those things all look like they would make interesting hobbies. Seems what you need to think more about is some way to make a living long term. In other words, a career.

 

This is where TEFL falls, or so I'd hope. From what I understand, it is in demand not only in China, but also the rest of Asia, Russia, Eastern Europe, Spain, etc. I've been interested in this career path for a few years but have put it off due to exploring other career avenues which haven't panned out, and it is even more attractive to me if it would allow me to pursue my real passions and interests.

 

 

 

I think the language scholarships from Taiwan do not have age restrictions or an university degree requirement.  I would recommend the websites Taiwan Fellowships & Scholarships and Study in Taiwan. There are forum members who have received scholarships to study in Taiwan, and would probably be able to help if that's where you decide on going.

 

Thank you, I will research this. Honestly I don't discriminate between the possibility of either Taiwan or the Mainland for pursuing my goals, the only reason I mentioned Mainland China more is because the sect of Daoism which most interests me (Quanzhen) is more of a Mainland thing.

 

 

I think you could do your degree in China with classes in English.

Many of the IR students in my classes have their classes in english. They take chinese language classes as well. This is in BLCU but as one of my classmates said "don't go to BLCU for an IR degree" lol.

 

Thanks for the tip, I will have to look into this option as well. IR is international relations I take it?

 

 

 

You should look at your Chinese-language learning goals realistically. To be able to read and understand most native materials on Daoism and Buddhism (especially pre-1949 material) would require 4-10 years of full-time and very dedicated study (i.e. more than 10 hours per day, everyday). The same goes for classical novels.

As for meeting real-life Daoism and Buddhism practitioners, you rightly said that they are scarce in mainland China today. You will have better luck in Taiwan, I think. A very sizable percentage of the public in Taiwan are practicing Buddhists, much, much more than in mainland. 

 

Well yes, these are all long-term goals, but long-term goals I'd like to get started on as soon as possible. Even if it takes me 20 years before I am able to read everything I'd like, I'd still pursue the goal, though being able to speak and communicate with people I'd like to meet is even more important to me than being able to read the previously mentioned material.

 

As to the Taiwan thing, I agree, but as mentioned above, the reason the Mainland caught my eye more was because of the presence of the sect of Daoism which interests me most.

 

 

 

And if you go to the mainland, you will be really disappointed in the "ancient Chinese culture" - there is a huge discrepancy between the China you imagine and the real China.

 

Yes, I am under no illusions about the presence of ancient Chinese culture in modern China. I experience this with my own culture (Western European), i.e. what interests me and what I love in my own culture is mostly pre-modern but this culture largely has no presence among the majority of people today. That said, I just keep hope that through a mixture of determination and luck, I'll be able to encounter what I am looking for.

 

Finally, just to add one more note, since the degree is more of a piece of paper which opens up legal avenues to teach for me, it isn't necessary that I earn one in China/Taiwan or in Chinese. If I could earn one online while studying in China or Taiwan from an English speaking source, I might follow that option as well, so long as it is cheap....I don't really believe in paying huge amounts for education since I am a self-learner and really don't believe in going in debt, and since the quality or reputation of the degree is unimportant to me (again since it functions as a legal document for my concerns) being cheap is even more desirable. How possible or preferable do you think this course of action would be?

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

 

 

 

[James3]

 

The one thing I do not want to do is to wait and earn a degree here where I live (the United States) before setting out for these goals, both for the amount of time it would push back my goals and for the costs of attending university here in the US, which is why I don't have a degree in the first place.

 

Not sure if this would meet your criteria or not, but here's something called the University of the People, and they say they're a tuition-free online university. I "read the fine print" when I first came across this site months ago, but it's been too long for me to remember if there's a catch...or if you do in fact end up having to pay something. But it might at least be more affordable.

[hedwards]

James3, the catch is that there's a fee for admission and then there's a fee for exams. Not to say that the fees are that high, it's just not quite free, it's like $10-50 to apply and then $100 to process exams. Which depending upon how many exams they do could come out to a fair amount of money.

Still that's going to be a lot less than what you would pay at a regular college.

[OneEye]

I'm going to echo the recommendations for Taiwan. I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism or Daoism (though I know a bit more about the latter due to my research in excavated texts), but I do know they both have a significant presence in Taiwan. And as far as 全真道 (Quanzhen Daoism), there's at least one respected scholar of that school at National Taiwan Normal University (陳廖安 Chen Liao-an), and one very respected scholar of early Daoism who teaches an outstanding course on thought in excavated texts (陳麗桂 Chen Li-kui).

 

Taiwan offers some really generous scholarships. You could feasibly get a scholarship that covers a year or two of language study plus a bachelor's degree. Make sure you have at least a basic ability in classical Chinese before you start your BA. Do the BA in the Chinese department at NTNU, which has a significant Chinese thought and religion component. Both of the professors I mentioned teach at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, they're good teachers, and they're really nice people. By the end of that degree, your Chinese ought to be good enough to handle just about anything you throw at it, modern or classical, and you'll have a really good base of knowledge in Chinese thought and religion.

 

It's going to be a fairly painful process though, trust me. Especially the first year of the BA. But NTNU offers an optional class for non-native Chinese speakers that will help you work on your academic writing, which I've heard is quite good.

 

Alternatively, you could do your BA in the "Chinese Language and Culture for Foreigners" department. That's a much more popular option, but their standards for language ability and cultural knowledge are also much lower in my experience. I'd apply to that department as a backup plan. Apply at other universities too. I'm recommending NTNU because I have experience there and I know the teachers.

 

You can make decent money tutoring English in Taiwan, but you probably won't get a legitimate job teaching English at a school without a degree. Tutor during your BA to get experience and extra cash. You could also start translating once your Chinese is good enough.

[ChTTay]

TEFL is a career of sorts ... but it's not a professional industry to work in at all. That includes some schools and some teachers who just do it as means to an end. Teachers to travel or as a way to live somewhere they would otherwise have no means to so (e.g. married a native but can't get a job outside of teaching for lack of experience or qualificiations). Some schools in China just set up to make as much money as possible, they have little regard for students or teachers along the way.

 

If you do take it seriously, and find a good employer, then it has it's limitations as a career. The usual career path would be teacher then become a teacher trainer or a foreign teacher manager... then you can hit a wall. Of course, you can move from a small school to a big school as a teacher or any other role. It's unlikely you can take it much further than these roles. This is generalizing but most people have to move away from TEFL if they want to progress in teaching. This might include moving back to their home country to do a teaching course OR doing a distance course from their home coutnry in teaching.

 

There are people who manage to push TEFL pretty far but they are usually exceptional anyway so would progress regardless of what they are doing. My friend went from teaching, to managin a school, to managing a province of schools, to travelling around China selling courses. I have never heard of anyone else have this career path though, especially within a 3 year period.

 

Just some things to think about ...

[hedwards]

I agree, the only person I've known who made significant amounts of money teaching English was somebody who developed a reputation for being able to save failing programs. I'm not really sure exactly how much she was making, but it was a huge amount.

[James3]

@hedwards interesting. I guess it may still be more reasonable than some options, but it's certainly not free.

[hedwards]

I'd want to know more about their reputation and accreditation before I'd give them money. It doesn't matter how inexpensive they are if the diploma isn't worth anything. On the other hand if it's just about learning something and not list it on a resume, then the standards would be much lower.

[Lu]

Depending on one's goals in life, not everyone wants or needs a career with prospects of getting many responsibilities and making lots of money. Many teachers (EFL and other things) are teachers all their lives and find this very fulfilling. Not everyone wants to be the boss. I know plenty of people (male and female, abroad and at home) with decent-but-not-amazing jobs who are happy with where they are and wouldn't want to exchange that for any other career.

If you aspire to a soaring career, teaching is not the way to go. If you want to make a living with a decent job, and you like teaching, then it's a pretty good choice in my opinion. Depending on your course load, it can leave room for other pursuits (such as learning more about religions).

[ChTTay]

You make a good counter-point Lu.

 

I guess when I see 'career path' I think of 'path' and 'going somewhere'. Staying in the same role for a long time, maybe for my life, doesn't seem to fit this. Starting out as a TEFL teacher, then moving into 'teaching' in a primary/middle/high school isn't going for the big bucks. It is progressing your career though and developing yourself further as a person/professional.

 

I would say teaching can be a 'soaring' career but it depends what you think of soaring. Monetarily not so 'soaring' but perhaps in other ways. You could really take teaching pretty far into other avenues with the right amount of effort and luck. From teaching, to department head, deputy head, head teacher. This would seem to be a slow process as you need time to get the experience. Equally, you could take your experience in education and pursue other options - Govt or NGO's.

[Lu]

I guess when I see 'career path' I think of 'path' and 'going somewhere'. Staying in the same role for a long time, maybe for my life, doesn't seem to fit this.

I understand, and being a teacher probably wouldn't be a good fit for you then. But many other people take up one profession and work in that profession all their life. That doesn't mean they're standing still: they can simply get better and better at that profession. You can be a doctor, teacher, translator, carpenter, and over time become a better doctor/teacher/translator/carpenter. Some people prefer to go on to become hospital administrator, or department head, or translation manager. Others prefer just staying in their chosen trade. Neither is wrong.

Similarly, some people find it important to significantly increase their income over time. Others work just enough so they don't need to worry about money and spend the rest of their time and energy on other things. Neither is wrong.

[James3]

 

I understand, and being a teacher probably wouldn't be a good fit for you then.

 

Or, maybe he is a teacher, and he's wanting people who are considering being one, to carefully weigh their options. :-)

[ChTTay]

Haha James3, you are very good.

 

I am currently an TEFL teacher, planning to take a PGCE (UK teaching qualificiation either by distance or in the UK) then... see where it leads.

 

Lu - I think you have not entirely understood where I'm coming from OR I haven't explained it so well... or both.

 

Ah well, the joys of forums.

 

See if the OP comes back here when there's been some action!

[hedwards]

@Lu, the problem is that teaching English just doesn't pay the bills. If you're doing it for a couple years, when otherwise retired or plan to live abroad permanently while your partner pays most of the bills, the pay is good enough for that. But, the money just doesn't last very long when you go home. China is one of the better paying countries, but even if you are frugal, the money you're able to put away isn't going to last very long when you get back home and probably just covers the time that you're unemployed looking for work. I couldn't find a job in South America where they were willing to cover the cost of living and even the best paying positions I was seeing required you to spend your own money to make up the difference. And that was from reputable schools, they were paying barely enough to cover rent and maybe food, and even then you'd have to economize.

 

I think it's great that people want to teach, I know I do, but unless you're independently wealthy, it's just not a profession where you can expect to be paid anywhere near what you'd be paid for other jobs with similar qualification requirements.

[Lu Dongbin]

Thanks for the further replies everyone, it looks like I have more research to do. Though I suppose from what input I've received so far, attempting to obtain some scholarships to study Mandarin and eventually earn a degree in Taiwan sounds like the best option to get started on this path. Anyone have any important or recommended links for further reading?

 

Regarding TEFL as a career, I suppose it isn't the best for money and doesn't transfer well to returning home (in my case to the US), but I am a bit of an oddball for two reasons. First, as my interests in Daoism and Buddhism might hint at, I am actually not much of a "careerist" or concerned with making good money as it were; I've considered becoming a monk in the past and might yet do so someday if possible and it is my destiny, but even if I don't I'd like to live like one in the lay world in any case. I've long been attracted to alternate ways of living like a houseboat living, perpetual travel, off-the-grid/back-to-basics, etc. In other words, as long as I can survive, be independent, and free I'll be content.

 

The second reason is that I have always had an itch to get out of the US since I was a teen. I figure with the proper experience and qualifications in TEFL, I could find my way to some place like Poland, Hungary, or even Russia after my time in Asia and thereby have a skill which would allow me to live in these places legally and survive comfortably enough. Even if I decide to return to the US or elsewhere in the Anglophone world where TEFL skills won't really transfer well, I figure I can worry about employment in other areas at that time...I have some basic qualifications and knowledge in IT, so I could always try expanding on that if necessary, though to be honest I don't like the field.

[James3]

I think teaching should be one of the most well paid roles in our society. After all, teachers are entrusted with raising up the younger generation, and molding and shaping them into future leaders of the world.

[abcdefg]

#30 --

You could really take teaching pretty far into other avenues with the right amount of effort and luck. From teaching, to department head, deputy head, head teacher. This would seem to be a slow process as you need time to get the experience.

 

I have a local (Chinese) friend who has pretty much done that. Last time we spoke a week or so ago, she said "I'm holding down three jobs." One as actual teacher of classes, another as manager of my branch office, and a third as head of development for new markets.

 

She added "真的疯狂状态" -- Works 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. every day, but admittedly makes a good living.

 

A very ambitious and talented young lady. But sadly, way too busy to accept my dinner invitation. I can sympathize, because during my productive years, I was cut from the same cloth. Climbed the career ladder and such. Not really complaining, but it did take a toll.