What level does speaking start to become encouraging?

[Johnny20270]

Ok a vague title I admit but I think I need a new plan!

 

 

Following on from AdamD's post on "Easy ways to have Chinese conversations in China" below, I have a related comment / question.

 

I have been pottering around studying Chinese in London on and off for two years and only after three weeks in China, my enthusiasm has become rock bottom. Lowest its ever been. I seem to have lost all motivation. Now I have all day to study whereas befoire I work 10 hour days and then could do study after work.  Odd as I was expecting it to be the exact opposite! 

 

I find that I can't make even the simplest conversations in Chinese and even in a coffee shop I barely know what they are saying. I find it very hard to get started, as either after a few stock standard phrases we are either left looking at the floor or conversation just reverts to English. I have tried to find language partner but I am doubtful that its all that useful. Everyone I meet has fairly good English and this the natural flow is in English. I think its probably better to be more disciplined about it. i.e. stick strictly to one hour English and one hour Chinese, as otherwise its 99%  to 1% English / Chinese

 

I assume everyone has been through this so wondering at what level you start to experience some 'synergy' in your Chinese learning. 

[Chris Two Times]

In which city are you at the moment?

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Johnny20270]

Hi Chris,

 

I'm in Beijing

[Chris Two Times]

It may not be a satisfactory answer, but I would simply say, be patient and keep pushing until the breakthrough comes, because it will come eventually.

 

Talk to a wide variety of people: old/young, male/female, university educated/not university educated, white collar workers/blue collar workers... and see with which groups you have the greatest success.

 

Today I was walking around the north of the Dongcheng district; among the trendy shops on Gulou Dongdajie there was a Shandong mantou shop with a line at least 50 meters long out the door. I am a magnet to such things and I just stopped and gawked until someone said "laowai" and then I used that as my cue to start the chitchat: "Wow! Are the mantou here delicious? Are they expensive? What is the price? How long have you waited?" One couple in line was eager to give me the lowdown and they seemed disappointed when I took off too soon.

 

That is one thing I have to work on: I have the opposite problem--I never let it get to the point of running out of things to say and just staring at the floor. I need to start aiming to push the conversation until I get to that point!  

 

Johnny20270, good luck with it all and keep chipping away at it.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[Johnny20270]

Cheers Chris

 

yeah in English I am fine, I have zero issues making the conversation and I am not shy at all. I see you have HSK4, how did you find it earlier on your studies? 

 

I might start conversations, point and say 这是什么 at which point they yap away in Chinese and I go ahh ok, 好好 and then walk away not understanding a single thing they said

[samosaman]

Yeah, reaching that aha-moment in Chinese is all about perserverance - just as anything else worth doing really. Perhaps you can get some most used sentences down pat, like:

怎么样 ？

干嘛去？

吃饭了吗？

今天超级忙。

出去玩儿吧。

 

Get a Chinese colleague or friend to give you feedback on your pronunciation. Also remember that speaking Chinese is oftentimes about your body language as well, so try to look the part. I teach Chinese in Beijing, <Admin Note: gratuitous link to own website removed.  Please read our guidelines for commercial posters>

[wumaoge]

Hi Johnny,

I think you need to learn at least 1000 words and some grammar syntax in order to understand the people.

The hardest part is to make your ear automatically split the syllables into words for you, but you can't achieve that without having good vocabulary basics.

I've been learning Chinese by myself and I have now an estimated HSK5 level, but it wasn't easy and it took a very long time as I wasn't in China when I began to learn.

Also, I strongly recommend that you use on a daily basis a SRS software like Anki or Skritter. I've made huge progress with Skritter, even the first month using it, it's fun and very effective.

Learning by writting (the Skritter way) is to my opinion the most efficient method to remember what you learn: not only you learn when studying, but you'll be actually able to read everywhere you go.

You can also try having basic conversations on QQ or Wechat groups, using Google Translate for reading if needed but never to write, so you can practice what you've learnt.

Oral comprehension and speaking skills will come naturally with your ability to understand vocabulary even written.

 

Good luck!

[tysond]

Johnny20270... So I don't have your experience as I am living in Beijing.

But when I hit around HSK3 level I found myself; being able to have conversations. But it was a bit of a hump to get there, as you kind of need the vocabulary to discuss meaning and need to imprOve your listening skill before you can actually talk around the gaps in your knowledge.

Sure you ask what is this, and no idea what the answer is. It happened today. It was some fruit, 冬枣. Actually 冬枣儿 but I have come to expect some northern accent so I repeat without the erhua (always repeat what they say until they agree). Then we agree it is dong1zao3. No idea really what it is so I try to look it up and pleco doesn't have it so use a PC and it suggests 冬枣 and I look in image search and lo and behold it is fruit like what I saw.

Sometimes I ask them to say it again. Sometime I ask them to wrIte it, on my phone oR on paper. Sometimes I ask - 这是什么东西？ 一种水果？ 一种植物？ 一种蔬菜？ 什么味道？ 20 questions is a good game to play. Build skills of asking questions around What is that word? What does that mean?

One good thing to do is bring a friend who is bilingual and ask them just to listen (not answer for you). Afterwards debrief - at first what did he say? And then what? Your friend should be able to slow down the speech and simplify for you. If you have friends with great English ask them to help like this while you talk with strangers -- shopkeepers, guards, taxi drivers etc.

Actually half the battle is knowing the kind of things people are likely to say. A taxi driver will generally confirm the address, the ask you which road to use, then ask about your country, marital status, job, etc. A guard will ask about your work finishing time, route home, country, marital status etc. A waiter will ask for your order, whether you have any allergies, and confirm your order.

I have found listening to podcasts, hsk tests and news/radio/TV to be particularly helpful in getting used to dialogs that might come up in real life. But there is still a learning curve when you finally hear things in real life, which is simply best overcome by throwing youRself into situations, failing, and trying again. Imagine yourself learning to throw a three pointer in basketball... So many failures before success but you know that continual practice will result in success over time.

[AdamD]

Johnny 20270, you mentioned that you walk away from conversations you started because you don't understand what the other person said in reply. If it's anything like what I go through, it's fear and paralysis. You're so anxious about what the other person is saying that you're probably more focused on the anxiety than the dialogue. That paralysis can become normal, especially when you know damn well that your knowledge far outstrips your listening ability.

 

If this applies to you, look at ways to shake off that paralysis.

 

These are the things I do:

 

- Speak only Chinese. If you get into a famous language battle, find an excuse to move on. (When I have plenty of time I'm happy to reciprocate with language exchange, but if I'm on a 中文 mission and have limited time I'm quite firm about this.)

 

- Speak more Chinese. You learn by doing, so your comprehension of speech will improve if you do more speaking. I feel stupid for not realising this myself years ago.

 

- When I don't understand what people are saying, which is currently about 70% of the time, I respond with '什么'? That's more likely to elicit the same sentence. (In my experience, saying stuff like '再说一遍' is more likely to elicit a different sentence, because they think using different words will help you. It's like saying 'sorry, could you say that again?' v 'huh?' in English: the 'huh?' is short and punchy, so the other person usually repeats verbatim.) If I still can't understand, I ask them to speak more slowly. If that doesn't work—loads of people in China try to slow down but really don't—I wrap up and move on. No point banging your head against the same wall.

 

- If the paralysis is really getting to you, consider that your personality might be better suited to going somewhere you never go and taking risks with language there, so if it all goes to hell you can leave unscathed and probably never see those people again. (By 'taking risks', I mean really asking people to repeat, slow down, etc.—being as firm as you need to be—but also starting conversations knowing you won't be there the next day to suffer ignominy if it all goes wrong.)

 

- Avoid language partners unless you have a very specific learning plan. They're great if you're still in the UK, or if you're desperate, or if you're at an advanced level and just need to iron out kinks. Now that you're in China, Chinese is on tap! Every language partner will by definition require some time speaking English: for you, that's at best a waste of your time and at worst a step backwards. I've made my best ever progress with Chinese when I've forced myself to speak no English at all for hours or days at a time.

 

- Watch more Chinese TV. This is considered a magic solution by so many people, and now that I'm doing it myself I'm beginning to see why. It takes time though.

 

- Chris Two Times suggested trying a wide variety of people. This is golden advice. Taking Beijing as an example, I still can't understand taxi drivers or people who sell meat on sticks, but I have better success with younger people and tourists from other parts of China who have pre-普通话ed their accent because they're on holiday.

 

- This is probably the best advice I can give you: Empathy is mutual. Remember that Chinese people who learn English go through exactly the same thing. The person you can't understand might even have given up on English in high school because it was too hard. Countless native Chinese speakers have told me about their earlier fear of starting conversations with English speakers because they knew they wouldn't understand people's replies.

 

To answer your main question, and following on from tysond's advice: In my experience, speaking doesn't start to become encouraging at any particular moment. On a given day I'll have no successful conversations at all, three days later I'll have a 40–50% success rate, and the day after that I'll crash back down to 10%. If you were to chart your daily success rate and produce an average over time, you might be surprised at how far you've come. And don't forget that language learning plateaus are mostly an illusion.

[Demonic_Duck]

Tysond's advice is all good, but I don't agree with AdamD that you should enforce a "speak only Chinese" rule when your level is insufficient (and you may find people becoming impatient with you if you try to).

 

If you're not at the level to have a proper conversation yet, a language exchange can still be valuable, if you find someone who's helpful and a natural teacher. Half English/half Chinese should still be the rule, but within the "Chinese" half you would be concentrating on improving your Chinese, rather than on speaking 100% Chinese. So perhaps your exchange partner could help you (using English as much as necessary) with some tricky grammar point you've come across lately, or with your pronunciation, or with helping you construct and act out some role-plays for a specific situation.

 

Other than that, just study as much as possible and keep at it! Take every opportunity to study - like Tysond says, any time you encounter a new object and there are people around to ask is an opportunity to learn a new word. When you see an unfamiliar word or character on a signpost, look it up. When you hear a new word in conversation, look it up. When you want to say something and don't know how, look it up, use it, and only after using it and being understood commit it to memory.

 

If it's listening comprehension that you feel is your weakest point (I know I certainly felt the same way when I first got to China), try to get as much listening practice as possible. Some suggestions (very simple kids' programmes, all of which can be found on Chinese video sites such as youku, letv, iqiyi, tudou etc.): 粉红猪小妹 (Peppa Pig), 爱探险的朵拉 (Dora the Explorer, English becomes Chinese, Spanish becomes English), and 巧虎 (some tiger character, I think originally Japanese).

 

At a marginally higher level of difficulty, but also more entertaining, are 蜡笔小新 (Crayon Shin Chan) and 樱桃小丸子 (Chibi Maruko Chan). Either of these you can watch and basically understand the story even if you're only picking up the odd few words or sentences.

 

Finally, if you're not taking classes, start taking classes.

[AdamD]

I don't agree with AdamD that you should enforce a "speak only Chinese" rule when your level is insufficient (and you may find people becoming impatient with you if you try to).

 

That's a fair point. I had the impression that Johnny20270's knowledge is good (HSK 3?) but he's having trouble applying it. That's where I am too, and dropping back into English when I'm in China only hinders my progress.

[anonymoose]

I think the problem with language exchange is that you shouldn't see it as just conversation exchange, but you should put a focus on learning the language rather than just using it. Most people won't be good natural teachers, so that puts the onus on you to ask questions and basically direct how you want the exchange to be. If you are stuck for ideas, then get a text book and work through the text book with your partner.

 

If you just treat language exchange as friends meeting up for a casual chat, then the language will inevitably revert to whichever is easiest - if your Chinese is poor, then that will be English. I know, because I had the same issue when I started out learning Chinese, though I was in the UK at the time. The way I saw it though, was that if I use English to ask questions about Chinese (which I had to do at that time as my Chinese wasn't good enough to ask in Chinese), then I get to improve my Chinese, whilst my partner is also getting the opportunity to converse in English.

 

When your Chinese gets good enough, eventually Chinese becomes the stronger language of the pair of you. At that time, conversation will naturally revert to Chinese. You may find then that your partners don't even care about speaking English any more - they are happy just to speak in Chinese only.

[Johnny20270]

hi all, good replys thanks 

 

AdamD: my knowledge I would say its an upper beginner. I know about ~1200 words but to be honest I can barely use them in any meaningful context. I have more text book knowledge than actual dynamic knowledge. In other words, its very hard for me to say things 'on the run' or in everyday conversation. I think this is the reason I find Chinespod lessons frustratingly difficult but grammar books some what understandable as they tend to be factual in nature. I have reread grammar books to a fair degree now, but never applied it so maybe this is where I am going wrong. 

 

So its not at any level to form a meaningful conversation. I think there probably is benefit in a language partner, but I seem to be finding people who are actually not that interested, have a few mental issues or just looking for a companion rather than a strict language exchange. Anonymoose made a good point of avoiding the trap of using language exchange as casual chit chat. I have the same experience. In some ways you need to be regimented and not really friends. I met a young lady and her English is pretty bad. Actually it was good as she naturally wants to revert to chinese, but lives to far away so bit tedious to travel. Although anonymoose did say "When your Chinese gets good enough, eventually Chinese becomes the stronger language of the pair of you". I don;t that will happen for a long time

 

Demonic_Duck: will have a look at the websites. I have been struggling to find more simpler material, cheers for that. Also yes, my mistake has been learning words but no clue how to use them

 

tysond: I like that idea of being more specific as you suggest! ... - 这是什么东西？ 一种水果？etc

[hedwards]

I think it's a matter of perspective. I become encouraged every time I make an utterance and get what I want. I remember ordering something at a restaurant in Chinese and having them refuse to accept that I couldn't say anything more. If you wish to remain motivated it's essential to focus on the progress you've made rather than the progress you need to make. Even after years of study there's probably going to be times when somebody is talking and you don't understand what they're saying.

[roddy]

My contribution, and largely based on this:

"I might start conversations, point and say 这是什么 at which point they yap away in Chinese and I go ahh ok, 好好 and then walk away not understanding a single thing they said"

 

It sounds like you're failing to manage the situation. You're expecting to not understand much - so prepare some 'sorry, can you speak slower?' and 'could you explain it more simply?' responses. Or just start off with 'I'm sorry, my Chinese isn't very good, but I'd like to ask...' I think generally people respond well to this kind of request - don't pull it on anyone with a queue of customers to get through, but when someone seems friendly and not too busy, try it out. 

 

You may also be suffering from the towel effect - if you can walk up and confidently deliver a question in fluent and well-pronounced Chinese, your interlocutor may well assume that you can handle a rapid-fire response. Maybe signal that isn't the case by slowing down yourself and making it look like you're making a huge effort. 

 

[Chris Two Times]

Roddy makes a good point. I spent five years in Japan slogging through Japanese and while I am pleased with my progress and ultimate ability in that language, I feel that my Mandarin is much more natural--I feel I am more able to automatically understand and respond in Mandarin than I can in Japanese.

 

One strategy that I have learned to use well in China is to manage the conversation--I won't hesitate to tell people to "please slow down" or "please repeat what you have said". I feel my strategic competence (strategies to use to repair breakdowns in understanding and communication) in Mandarin is not bad.

 

This is key and this is something I never really did in Japan--I would simply slog through and try to be all Japanesey-polite and just nod and then walk away not understanding. I like it that we "don't have to be so polite in China" (whatever that means).

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[hedwards]

@Roddy, I'd never heard of the towel effect, but I'm not surprised that it's a HHGTG thing.

 

This sort of management thing is really important for beginners. For those that are lazy, I know that Benny Lewis has a fair number of words and phrases that can be used to help manage the flow of conversation. There are probably other lists out there, but I know he's got one that's fairly comprehensive in his book.

 

This reminds me that I need to make sure that I've got those down.

[abcdefg]

Quote

...my knowledge I would say its an upper beginner. I know about ~1200 words but to be honest I can barely use them in any meaningful context. I have more text book knowledge than actual dynamic knowledge. In other words, its very hard for me to say things 'on the run' or in everyday conversation.

 

Many excellent comments already above.

 

I think every foreign learner goes through something like this early on. As in many undertakings (including sports) it's appealing to practice what you're already pretty good at instead of trying more of what you're not very good at.

 

If conversation is hard, do more of it. Try to structure the scenes in favor of success by selecting simple situations. Rehearse some parts silently if you can, such as likely follow up questions or suitable answers.

 

I like @Hedwards post #14, above, about setting the bar low as to what counts as a triumph. Early on if I went into a restaurant and ordered dumplings and tea, I would be happy if they understood the tea part verbally and I wound up having to just point to the dumplings on another table in order to get mine.

 

It was a major breakthrough when I finally tumbled to the arcane knowledge that people here don't order 茶。What they order is 茶水 or 一杯茶水。And context helped a lot, such as 我想喝一杯茶水。 I practiced ordering it even when I didn't really want to drink it. Then I practiced asking for a refill, 麻烦你加一点茶水。When that worked it made me immediately happy and I felt a warm glow of accomplishment. 

 

I went through a phase of asking for the bathroom in every restaurant I visited whether I needed to use it or not. Even if communication had been fouled up in getting the exact meal I wanted, if I could find the toilet afterwards, that still counted as a small win. I practiced using 洗手间 and 厕所 to make it more difficult. Sometimes 卫生间。

 

At the breakfast buffet in larger hotels, I put my hands in my pockets when going through the serving line. This kept me from resorting to just pointing at things I wanted to eat. Had to force myself to use the words for various foodstuffs. If I got the words wrong, they would correct me and I'd try again. If I didn't know what a dish was, I could still say 这个蔬菜 or 这个炒肉。 If half of it worked out OK, that was a victory.

 

The advice above from @Chris Two Times is also very important and apt about the value of learning how to manage temporary communication breakdowns. They are inevitable regardless of your level, and managing them well helps a whole lot.

 

For example a 听不懂 will often just end things by getting your interlocutor to throw up his hands and look for a colleague who can deal with you in English. Whereas, on the other hand, 我不太明白你的意思 can lead to useful rephrasing.

 

As was already said on that topic, adding requests to slow down or use simpler wording may also help. Must be assertive about asking for and insisting on what you need from the other party in order for communication to happen. Can't tell you how many times I've had to say 请再说一遍，但是慢一点。

 

Don't dwell on your failures; embrace your successes. You must learn to pat yourself on the back. That's the only way to avoid discouragement. As you progress, positive reinforcement will arrive in huge waves from every direction and it will feel very good, I assure you.

[Johnny20270]

Don't dwell on your failures; embrace your successes. You must learn to pat yourself on the back. That's the only way to avoid discouragement. As you progress, positive reinforcement will arrive in huge waves from every direction and it will feel very good, I assure you.

 

 

 

I think this is probably a critical factor. It is very easy to just go "sod it I'll just speak English and just point".

[tysond]

Can't tell you how many times I've had to say 请再说一遍，但是慢一点。

 

 

As a result of spending a summer with some folks from Spain, Germany, and the Netherlands I was actually "trained" in this manner to slow down and simplify my speech as I was the only native speaker in our group.  I also learned to repeat important ideas in two different ways - to say the same thing in another way (like this sentence).

This habit has actually stuck with me for life and is very useful when speaking to non-native speakers.  But I had to learn to do it.  So will your new Chinese friends.

 

I know that Benny Lewis has a fair number of words and phrases that can be used to help manage the flow of conversation

 

 

 

I do not know what Benny has today, but when I bought his e-book around 2 years ago, it had "conversation connectors".  I did not find them valuable.  

 

First of all, it was just an excel file that someone else had translated, no examples, no explanation, you had to match it up with the corresponding English excel file by yourself (compare with say Glossika's videos where he explains sentence by sentence).  Hard to use... really felt thrown together with minimal care.  

 

Second, even if you did figure out how to use it, you are now spending valuable time memorizing things like "on the other hand" and "well, in a manner of speaking" and "it's not so much this, as much as it is...".  A small number of such constructs is good, but they add shades of meaning and often just pad out the sentence giving you time to think.   If you need to do this the really easy way to do this is "neige neige negie...." or repeat the topic of the question and add "de hua" when answering to buy some time.

 

Third, I realized the purpose of them was to give the impression of fluency while not actually having it, and to fill up more time in the exchange speaking rather than listening.  This is not in line with my goals.  I felt it was a better use of time to learn verbs and nouns, for example, so you have more things to talk about.  

 

I learn these phrases on a frequency basis - it's they are commonly used and I hear/see them in context then I learn them.  At higher levels of course they become more useful.

 

However, It is worthwhile learning set phrases to control the conversation by asking for clarifications, repeats, slow-downs.  One that I don't think anyone mentioned is to ask "你的意思是。。。。“ then repeat (or rephrase) what you understand the meaning to be.  Very useful for clarifying your "guessed" meaning.