薛寶釵與林黛玉

[xuexiansheng]

I was just reading through my homework assignment of 馮友蘭 Feng Youlan's essay 談兒女 and came across a description of 薛寶釵and林黛玉from紅樓夢, which I read last year for class in translation.

 

I loved 薛寶釵 and couldn't stand the moaning and weeping over 林黛玉's bad attitudes. I guess I'm not a romantic and couldn't appreciate her 'delicacy'.

 

Feng was describing why a family would choose one as a wife over the other, a practical decision to ensure the family's prosperity:

但站在賈母的家的觀點看，賈母一點也不錯誤。少年老成的寶釵，當然比工愁善病的黛玉，能持家，能「立門戶」。

My teacher translated 工愁善病 as: skilled at being sad and excellent at getting sick

 

I always wanted a good way to describe those two in Chinese! Only a year late...

[gato]

林黛玉 is also often described as "多愁善感" (sentimental), which could be considered is a little less than negative than "工愁善病". "工愁善病" sounds malicious, whereas "多愁善感" is more a personality trait.

http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%E5%A4%9A%E6%84%81%E5%96%84%E6%84%9F+%E6%9E%97%E9%BB%9B%E7%8E%89

http://baike.baidu.com/view/79039.htm

多愁善感的人格类型

《红楼梦》中的林妹妹

多愁善感的典型莫过于《红楼梦》中的林妹妹了。这是一种典型的抑郁型人格，她敏感、多情，又十分脆弱，这类人总是显得与周围环境格格不入。他们的内心缺乏安全感，非常怕被人拒绝，又总认为别人不了解自己，喜欢我行我素。

[xuexiansheng]

@gato

 

I think that is why I liked that description so much! I was a big fan of 薛寶釵, and couldn't understand why 寶玉 was ever interested the the petty, mewling, capricious 黛玉. I don't have the Chinese skills to really appreciate 黛玉's poetry, maybe my feelings will change when I'm able to read it in Chinese. My teacher described her poems as possibly the best poetry of that age, but since I was reading it in translations (albeit a very good translation by David Hawkes!) I couldn't find any attraction to her as a character and no sympathy for her at the end.

[skylee]

couldn't understand why 寶玉 was ever interested the the petty, mewling, capricious 黛玉.

Because of 木石前盟.

[陳德聰]

Haha yeah I was gonna say... It's the whole fate/destiny thing.

[skylee]

Yeah. It is wood+stone (Daiyu+Baoyu) vs gold+jade (Baochai+Baoyu). As Daiyu must give all her tears to Baoyu in return of the water he gave her when she was wood (a plant), she has to be a sentimental person.

[tooironic]

Just out of curiosity, have either of you read the entire Hong Lou Meng in Chinese?

[TheBigZaboon]

@tooironic

I'm not sure which two (either of you) of the four participants you are asking, but at least for skylee (and maybe for 陳德聰 and gato??), I would expect the question would be better phrased as "Have you read the entire Hong Lou Meng in English?"

 

@xuexiansheng admits to some familiarity with the English version by David Hawkes, which I found tough going if only because of its length. I'm afraid I quit in exhaustion after the second volume. I've had better luck with children's versions in Chinese, but they were very, very abridged versions, used modern day Chinese, and sometimes had little pictures and CDs for dummies like me.

[skylee]

I have read the first 80 chapters of Hong Lou Meng in Chinese several times (I think less than 10, but not sure). I am sure you know why it is the first 80 chapters. And I am not sure if I have completed reading the last 40 chapters. I re-read it once every few years since I was a teenager, but I don't do it any more (mainly because it has been packed in a box for like six years). As it is a long novel, I liked to skip the parts that I didn't like.

I have not read the English version. Why would I?

[陳德聰]

I picked it up for the second time last week because I felt I had only skimmed it the first time and someone made an extremely specific reference in a conversation that made consider re-reading it for myself rather than for school. I don't ever intend to read the English version.

[xuexiansheng]

Because of 木石前盟. 

 

Haha yeah I was gonna say... It's the whole fate/destiny thing.

 

@skylee and @陳德聰

 

The fatalistic/mystical introduction was my least favorite part of the book. It seems like a strange opening to such a lovely portrait of human relationships, when in the rest of the book the characters and situations are so 'real'. I always wonder if 曹雪芹 had had enough time to finish the book and edit it properly if those aspects would have meshed better. I guess we'll never know...

[xuexiansheng]

@skylee

 

I have not read the English version. Why would I? 

 

 

I'm sure the Chinese version for a native speaker will always be the best version.

 

Maybe for a translator it would be a good reference point. My teacher when we were reading the Hawkes translation said that his "Story of the Stone" translation is possibly the best translation of a source material into English that preserves the author's voice and tone.

 

I've read the Hawkes and the Gladys Yang translation and I felt the Hawkes was much more readable and drew me in to the world.

[陳德聰]

I may be wrong, but I assumed that the introduction was done that way as a way to further stand out from other writing of the time. The whole co-opting of motifs like the 女媧補天 in order to tell a story of "real life" rather than the mystical tripe seemed more like subversion of the typical narrative in favour of the humanity of the following.

[Lu]

I haven't read the Chinese (read a little bit in class at some point and it was just much too hard), but Hawkes' English translation is great, and translators widely appreciate it as one of the best translations from Chinese of anything.

Yang Xiangyi and Gladys Yang should be appreciated for the sheer volume of their work, but they basically kill everything they translate. No style whatsoever is left in their English.

That said, I'm currently working on a book also translated by Howard Goldblatt and I'm glad he never touched the Honglou Meng. This translation is just sloppy.

[maomao2014]

宝玉's grandma 贾母like 黛玉,but 宝玉's mother 王夫人does not like her and prefer 宝钗. One reason is because 宝钗 is her sister's daughter and the other is that she is good temper.贾母 does not like 宝钗, but she has to give up choosing 黛玉, because 元春,宝玉's older sister 贾妃 support her mother 王夫人.You can see that from 元春prepares special gifts to 宝玉和宝钗,but just normal gifts to 黛玉and other sisters. So she already presume that 宝玉和宝钗should be together. 贾母accept the fact that 黛玉cannot be 宝玉's wife ,and she also does not accept 宝钗，that is why she ask people to arrange other noble girls to 宝钗 and she like 宝钗's sister 宝琴so much.