Thoughts on the less "PC" culture in China

[ablindwatchmaker]

I just wanted to get people's thoughts on this and whether or not they found this refreshing, insensitive, or maybe a combination of the two.

 

One of the first things I noticed about having serious conversations in China was that I could essentially turn my filter off, as long as I wasn't talking about certain geopolitical issues, of which we are all aware, and wasn't directly challenging the CCP. I appreciated the candid nature of conversations and noticed the stark contrast between US and Chinese culture.

 

Thoughts?

[Lu]

'Politically correct' in the US means watching your words on issues like race relations and sexism. 'Politically correct' in China means watching your words on issues like the three T's and international relations. Certainly you can turn off one filter, as long as you 1) turn on another one and 2) don't mind possibly insulting minorities and/or women. In the US, you can turn the Chinese filter off again, as long as you 1) turn on the US one and 2) don't mind possibly insulting Han Chinese men.

Fun somewhat-related fact: a while ago I was translating a collection of blogs by Han Han into Dutch. Not sure if Dutch society is more racist than the US, but there is certainly less awareness of US-style political correctness. At some point, Han Han quotes Chinese netizens: 說到日本人，就是小日本，說到韓國人，就是高麗棒子，說到印度人，就是啊三(...).

The English translation has this as 'When people talk about the Japanese or Koreans or Indians, you see lots of derogatory epithets', without actually using any epithets.

Now Holland is less sensitive in that respect, which on one hand is bad, but on the other hand, I wasn't the one calling people names and I also didn't feel it was my place to make things look better than they were or spare people's feelings. So I translated this using words like 'Japs' and 'coolies' (I had to made up an insult for Koreans since Dutch doesn't have one ready-made).

And in China, Han Han himself is politically incorrect and better not mentioned in newspapers, so when I make my Chinese cv I leave out this collection altogether.

[ablindwatchmaker]

I would include criticism of religion in a list of politically incorrect things to discuss in the United States, as well as class differences (outside of punditry), and foreign cultures.

 

 

I wasn't the one calling people names and I also didn't feel it was my place to make things look better than they were or spare people's feelings

 

Yes, revisionism is a much worse offense than hurting someone's feelings.

 

I just feel that it has deepened in those areas, and expanded to others, to the point that it is no longer possible to have meaningful conversations with people that aren't taken out of a positive psychology self-help book. I feel like many people are living in the matrix or ingesting some kind of drug that is making them delusional.

 

I'll give you an example that pertains to relations between the sexes. If you were to do a scientific survey, you would find that the AVERAGE woman, not everyone, prefers guys who are tall. That's factually accurate and there is virtually no contradictory evidence. Does this mean that only tall guys are desirable to women? Of course not. I am not tall and have no dog in this fight. Now, most people wouldn't be terribly offended at this statement, though some would.

 

Now, taking this a little further, when I was in China, it was common knowledge that a man's social status in life was very important to potential dating partners, and that the lack thereof could be a significant impediment in dating. Most of the Chinese men I knew operated according to this philosophy, and the truth of the philosophy seems incredibly evident, at least to me. Now, I actually have no problem with women who place a high value on a man's social position. It makes evolutionary sense when you are the child bearing sex. I also know many women who date guys who don't have lot of status or money, even in China. Again, a general pattern. I remember being shocked when I was in a group of people in China and this was actually brought up as casually as mentioning the temperature. It was no big deal and there was no value judgement ascribed to the situation. On the other end, I was dumped by a Chinese girl who directly told me that I didn't have enough status for her. Was I pissed, sure, but it didn't challenge the legitimacy of her preference or judge her worth as a human being based on that position. Now, I've brought this very same issue up in the United States, where this phenomenon is also observed and supported by plenty of data, and I was verbally assaulted. I say these types of things about male bias as well (I could write a long list), so I didn't think I was coming off as particularly biased or mean, just matter of fact, but it didn't matter.

 

This doesn't seem like a big deal, but it permeates everything. The common theme that I've detected in the West seems to be adherence to a blank-slate theory of humanity (I got the term from Steven Pinker). When anybody makes a statement about anything that suggests humans are biological creatures and follow certain patterns, or that they follow any pattern at all, regardless of origin, people in the West have a big problem, especially if preference is involved (I agree that in some of these cases that is highly problematic). If it pertains to intellectual ability, personality, physical attractiveness, religion, culture, class, race, people become very upset. In the west, people seem unable to disengage their identities from discussions about groups which might include them.

 

In China, it is possible to have rational discussions about all of the above without people losing their minds. I've noticed that this often true of other conservative cultures as well. I am in no way saying that they aren't taken to an unacceptable level and that the Chinese should re-examine many of their views with respect to sex, race, or religion, but what I am saying is that it is refreshing to be able to have a discussion about it at all. In other words, I'm not sure the west has made as much progress as they think as a result of hiding from so many issues. To the extent that our civilization has progressed socially, thankfully, I think it is the LACK of excessive PC when examining an issue that leads to positive outcomes, not an unwillingness to engage topics.

 

Perhaps the Chinese have a more naturalistic view of reality. I'm still learning.

[Lu]

Yes, revisionism is a much worse offense than hurting someone's feelings.

Well, I don't know about that, that's rather a broad statement. But in this case I thought my decision was the right one. Although I'd be happy to reconsider if someone would make a case against it.

When you talk about this stuff, I think you need to keep in mind that 'the West' is a very big place, ranging from Sweden with its gender-neutral kindergartens to Italy with its bimbos on tv to the US with its Ferguson issues.

In the west, people seem unable to disengage their identities from discussions about groups which might include them.

But that's the thing. It's not so different in China, only the groups people include themselves in are different. An American woman might be insulted if you tell her women prefer taller men, but not if you tell her Iraqis are unhappy about American intervention. A Chinese woman might be insulted if you tell her Taiwanese people don't want to be Chinese, but not if you tell her women prefer taller men.

Perhaps Chinese people's ideas on certain things mesh more closely with your own than many Americans' ideas, but that's probably not the result of a more 'naturalistic' view, or of less political correctness. It's likely just a coincidence. Many Chinese would also tell you that Jews are smarter or that black people are closer to monkeys, to name a few politically incorrect things that you probaby don't agree with.

[Shelley]

I find some topics of conversation are not actually wrong or insulting just different. In the UK asking people especially women about their age is not considered polite whereas Chinese people don't seem to mind this at all.

 

Also a popular question when meeting Chinese people is "how much do you earn?" not something you would even think of asking here in the UK.

[ablindwatchmaker]

 

Well, I don't know about that, that's rather a broad statement

Agreed, I should have qualified that statement. I tend to value the truth very highly, above even my own emotional well-being at times, but I agree that

sensitivity is sometimes in order.

 

 

I think you need to keep in mind that 'the West' is a very big place

Agreed, and I'll qualify. The United States and similar western political cultures, whatever they may be. I don't know a lot about many places in Europe, so I'll refrain from including them in the discussion.

 

 

An American woman might be insulted if you tell her women prefer taller men, but not if you tell her Iraqis are unhappy about American intervention. A Chinese woman might be insulted if you tell her Taiwanese people don't want to be Chinese, but not if you tell her women prefer taller men.

 

And these are perfect examples of people being irrational. Of course the Chinese have their biases, but it is certainly possible for some people to look at things objectively and be reasonable, even when they are included within that group. I do it all of the time, and so do plenty of other people.

 

 

Perhaps Chinese people's ideas on certain things mesh more closely with your own than many Americans' ideas, but that's probably not the result of a more 'naturalistic' view, or of less political correctness. It's likely just a coincidence.

 

This is certainly possible, but it seems highly improbable. Maybe you are right. I don't have enough experience or evidence to decide yet. I will say that I felt more free to discuss random topics in China than I do at coffee shops here in the US.

 

 

Many Chinese would also tell you that Jews are smarter or that black people are closer to monkeys, to name a few politically incorrect things that you probably don't agree with.

 

The latter is ridiculous and has no basis in reality, and the former is still not possible to determine given psychometric science and the varying definitions of intelligence. It is a true statement that in the US, Jewish students have higher than average academic performance, but academic performance is only one dimension of intelligence, broadly construed, and so it means nothing.

 

I will say that based on an initial impression, the Chinese seem to be a little more rational than Americans, on average. I don't know yet and I don't have an explanation for it, but I seem to get more controlled discussions about issues than I do here. Perhaps religion and political polarization have something to do with this problem.

[gato]

What topics did you discuss in China? What topics haven't been able to discuss in Austin?

[Lu]

Many Chinese would also tell you that Jews are smarter or that black people are closer to monkeys, to name a few politically incorrect things that you probably don't agree with.

The latter is ridiculous and has no basis in reality, and the former is still not possible to determine given psychometric science and the varying definitions of intelligence. It is a true statement that in the US, Jewish students have higher than average academic performance, but academic performance is only one dimension of intelligence, broadly construed, and so it means nothing.

My point is not to debate those statements, but to give an illustration of things that many Chinese people will be happy to state that yet don't match your worldview. This is not about Jews or black people, this is about Chinese people not always being that rational.

I will say that based on an initial impression, the Chinese seem to be a little more rational than Americans, on average.

I really doubt that. I think it's likely a case of the people you talking to about things you have an opinion on agreeing with your opinion.

I won't continue this discussion much longer, because we'll soon fall into discussing which points of view are rational and which aren't, and we'll strongly disagree on that. I would like to remark that I get the impression you are a straight white man, and if that is the case, perhaps you want to try to put yourself in other (non-white, non-straight, non-male) people's shoes a bit more and see if they perhaps have reason to be offended by certain things, even if you from your personal perspective wouldn't consider that rational.

[hedwards]

Personally I tend to prefer China in this regard. I was actually just thinking of that today. In the US there's an ever expanding list of things that you can't say without being shunned. In China there's things that you can't say, but the rules and consequences are a bit easier to follow. I just avoided talking about the 3 Ts and 1 C and just didn't comment on governmental affairs unless I could be neutral. It's certainly easier than in the US where you never know what you're going to say that's going to upset somebody.

 

Just yesterday I complained about the quality of a poorly written article about adoption and was accused of being cruel and the reason why adoptees won't talk when I hadn't said anything at all about adoptees. Just about the article being of extremely poor quality and not even seeing a message to evaluate.

[gato]

A problem with China is that most people (even very highly educated people from prestigious universities) are just not very knowledgeable about things that most educated Americans or Europeans would know about -- common things ranging from the humanities (history, philosophy, religion, literature) to science (biology, physiology, psychology, medicine) -- so it's often hard to have a balanced in-depth conversation.

The Chinese education is too exam- and teacher-oriented. Students aren't encouraged to explore and learn things on their own and as a result, don't know much outside of what's in the exams. They are usually so tired from studying by the time they get to college that they've already lost all motivation to learn things on their own.

[anonymoose]

A problem with China is that most people (even very highly educated people from prestigious universities) are just not very knowledgeable about things that most educated Americans or Europeans would know about -- common things ranging from the humanities (history, philosophy, religion, literature) to science (biology, physiology, psychology, medicine) -- so it's often hard to have a balanced in-depth conversation.

 

Sure, Chinese people do not know as much as Westerners about Western history, Western philosophy, Western religions, Western literature, but how many Westerners know much about Chinese history, Confuscius, Buddhism, Hong Lou Meng and Tang poetry?

 

It's easy to have in-depth conversations if you're willing to accept different views and look beyond your own world view.

[gato]

We are talking about different things. You are talking about mutual ignorance about the others' culture and history. I am talking about the low level of knowledge among well-educated mainlanders about culture and history in general, including one's own culture and history.

Just looking at the top students in each society: The average Peking University graduate's knowledge of general subjects outside his/her area of study is very low, compared to the average Harvard or Oxford graduate.

[renzhe]

If it pertains to intellectual ability, personality, physical attractiveness, religion, culture, class, race, people become very upset.

I don't think that this is only a reflection of a PC culture.

The problem with all the things you've mentioned is that they are wishy-washy, unscientific categories with very stretchy definitions. While everybody will agree on categories like "tall", they will typically disagree on questions of personality, attractiveness, and even culture and race, because everybody is using a different set of definitions.

So discussions involving them tend to be wishy-washy and loaded with prejudice and misunderstanding.

[Guest realmayo]

........ but they form the basis of shared human experience!

[Balthazar]

We are talking about different things. You are talking about mutual ignorance about the others' culture and history. I am talking about the low level of knowledge among well-educated mainlanders about culture and history in general, including one's own culture and history.

 

Are you saying that (well-educated) Chinese on average knows less both about their own history and culture, and history and culture more generally, than (well-educated) Americans or Europeans? My experience (which admittedly is limited) is the exact opposite, that Chinese on average are more culturally and histrorically self-aware and that you are far more likely to find a Chinese gratuate familiar with the cannonized western philisophers, authors, and scientists (even if only superficially), than the other way around.

 

I also don't know how useful it is to put Harvard and Oxford vs. Peking as a yardstick representing "well-educated" in the West and China, but that's another matter.

[renzhe]

........ but they form the basis of shared human experience!

I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about them, just saying that it's one major reason why it gets people upset.

[Guest realmayo]

Sorry, sure, wasn't suggesting that -- just thinking that to be human = to tend towards prejudice and misunderstanding

[gato]

Chinese students learn a lot of names, dates, and summary facts for exams, but read very few books (even during school, and even less after graduating). They know about those subjects in a trivial pursuit/quiz show contestant type of way.

And as an somewhat compulsive buyer of books, I find that there are much fewer good Chinese books about those Chinese subjects than there are good English books about those Western subjects, which might say something about the available authors and demand from readers.

[Silent]

 

 

One of the first things I noticed about having serious conversations in China was that I could essentially turn my filter off, as long as I wasn't talking about certain geopolitical issues, of which we are all aware, and wasn't directly challenging the CCP. I appreciated the candid nature of conversations and noticed the stark contrast between US and Chinese culture.

I'm not in a position to judge, had to little in depth discussions with Chinese people and certainly not with 'average' Chinese. I'm also not sure what you mean by 'filter' turning on/off.

 

I think however that everyone is biased and has their own sensitivities. In part they will be culturally. I know I'm behaving in the same way, but feel PC is basically a lie and hypocrisy. I'm not sure it's worse in the west then it is in other area's. Basically it's a tool to manipulate and suppress people and to discredit disconcerting opinions. Pushing those disconcerting opinions underground. This will often work, specially short term, but in the long run it's a death end. Disconcerting opinions, if legit, will grow underground and may suddenly explode and result in upheaval. 

[studychinese]

'The West', America and certain European countries in particular, are declining into decadence.

Take 'wieghtism'. It is an attempt to censor people's thoughts and not to allow them to make their own subjective judgements about weight based on their own standards and values. To me this is lunacy. To the people that disagree with me I am a hate criminal for noticing that they are fat.

This is just one of the many manias afflicting the west. In 30 years white people will be a minority in all western countries besides Iceland, and 'the west' will be a historical footnote, the obsessions and manias we see today contributing to its downfall.