How much does the pollution bother you in China?

[Manuel]

It bothers me, as does the hypocrisy surrounding the whole issue.

 

In Beijing a lot of the pollution may well come from car exhaust fumes, but where I live there are not that many cars and we still have pollution, which of course emanates from the local factories, so somebody is lining their pockets at the expense of everybody else's health. Don't factory owners feel guilty every morning when they wake up and look out of the window? This is holocaust, just slower.

 

Pollution is often a topic on Party-controlled media (I guess you cannot hide air pollution and rivers of sh*t), yet the Party are directly responsible for the lack of regulations regarding industrial emissions.

 

It's funny how the locals are so used to it that subconsciously they view air pollution as a weather phenomenon, something beyond their control.

 

The pic below shows what I see from my window in China on a pretty bad day vs home back in Spain (outskirts of Madrid, the capital). Obviously population density is much higher in China but we are doing an absolute comparison here. No, I didn't apply the "sepia" effect to the picture on the left, and I didn't Photoshop the one the right.

 

[abcdefg]

I live in Kunming, where I usually don't notice it. Every now and then we will have a bad day (not "bad" by Beijing standards of course.)

 

Am currently visiting Guangzhou, and start coughing every time I set foot outside. Today's on-line air quality stats show an approximate two-fold difference between the two cities, even though Guangzhou still doesn't look all that bad. (60 Kunming vs.120 Guangzhou.)

 

http://aqicn.org/city/all/

[ChTTay]

Unfortunately, these days 120 is a happy day for me. Get the bike out and ride to work!

[imron]

and I didn't Photoshop the one the right.

The problem is that doing so is such a common thing for photos in China that any Chinese person who hasn't been out of China will not believe the sky could ever really be that blue.

[Lu]

Pollution is often a topic on Party-controlled media (I guess you cannot hide air pollution and rivers of sh*t), yet the Party are directly responsible for the lack of regulations regarding industrial emissions.

That's not entirely true. There are all kinds of regulations, the problem is local enforcement. The quality of local administrators is judged by economic output; the local government needs to generate income and does so by selling land to factories; and Beijing can make all kinds of rules, if the owner of the local factory is best buddies with the mayor, good luck in getting those rules enforced. But as you say, the problem is in the open, discussed in the media, worried about by the people, and the government is aware that something has to be done.

[Manuel]

Yes I should probably have written "responsible for factories failing to abide by regulations regarding industrial emissions".

 

If economic output were a good indicator of adequate local administration, then there wouldn't be so much pollution in China, so they have picked the wrong parameter there, and of course it's not a coincidence: some are reaping the benefits. As this excellent article puts it:

 

 

In a healthy economy, money is not the dominant value, nor is it the sole or even dominant medium of exchange. Indeed, one of the most important indicators of economic health is the presence of an active economy of affection and reciprocity in which people do a great many useful things for one another with no expectation of financial gain. Such voluntary sharing creates and maintains the social fabric of trust and mutual caring of which the social capital of any healthy family, community, or society is comprised.

[Simon_CH]

I think pollution is certainly a major factor in long-term quality of life. It bothers me now, but would be unbearable if I knew I had to stay here and had no choice to leave whenever I feel like it. 

 

The recent APEC meeting has clearly demonstrated what the main source of air pollution is in Beijing: heavy (state-owned) industry. It's not the relatively modern German cars on Beijings streets, it's not the outdoor BBQs nor is it small private manufacturing or other such nonsense as propagated by state media. Turn off glass, iron, steel production for a few days and the air is as good/bad as any major city in the world with a lot of cars and high population density.

 

But experts already knew this for a long time, it's just state media that are still in deliberate denial, even going so far as calling it a weather phenomenon, fog and the like... but it's all been debated to death, no need to dig up that old conversation..

 

It's a major tradeoff of course, Hebei's GDP growth and industrial acticity are already slowing significantly, shutting down old polluting factories or forcing them to actually activate the installed filter systems would likely be a blow it couldn't recover from.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/30/us-china-environment-idUSKBN0IJ0YV20141030

 

And stating that China has the biggest wind farms, the largest solar panel market is all very well, but is a tiny proportion of newly added power generation capacity, much smaller than new coal plants for example.

[Johnny20270]

China has declared war on pollution many times to address the peoples concerns yet failed to really tackle the problem effectively 

 

at the end of the day, they could do genuinely do something about it but simply choose not to .... 

[Simon_CH]

 

China has declared war on pollution many times to address the peoples concerns yet failed to really tackle the problem effectively 

 

at the end of the day, they could do genuinely do something about it but simply choose not to ...

 

Of course they COULD have, but the question is always at what expense. The Chinese economic miracle as we know it would not have been possible without a complete disregard for the environment. If private manufacturers and SOE from the 1990s on had to adhere to environmental regulation their cost structure would have been drastically different, and they couldn't have exported such cheap goods, nor could they have built all the (relatively) cheap infrastructure and buildings which contributed to a huge degree to economic growth.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I do think that slower economic growth would have been preferable to the current mess, I am simply stating that there is no such thing as a free lunch. And there's some very tough decisions to be made now. Strict enforcement of environmental regulation would bankrupt a huge part of the export sector and would generate huge deficits for the state sector, further slowing down the economy. You can't have economic restructuring and increased consumption if people start losing their jobs.

[Johnny20270]

@Manuel. You have given me fond memories of Spain and Portugal. I always feel so relaxed there (apart from Madrid!)

 

 

@Simon:

 

Strict enforcement of environmental regulation would bankrupt a huge part of the export sector and would generate huge deficits for the state sector, further slowing down the economy. You can't have economic restructuring and increased consumption if people start losing their jobs.

 

 

The problem is the is short term greed that is driving a lot of it. Haiti / Dominican republic is a perfect example. Geographically and topologically the same but Haiti had no forward planning and basically totally messed up their economic by plundering their natural resources, internal power struggles and greed. 

[Simon_CH]

Sure, most of the profit of the state-owned heavy industry goes into greedy pockets, but they are still huge employers in Hebei.

 

It's really not so easy, economic slowdown and unemployment or better air? Depends on who you're asking. The middle-class in Beijing want the government to take very drastic action whereas the poor working in these factories rather keep their jobs and eat than breathe cleaner air.

[Johnny20270]

it will come a an ugly breaking at some point in the future. World is just over populated and exponentially getting worse. 

 

Grim future

[Angelina]

 

Haiti / Dominican republic is a perfect example. Geographically and topologically the same but Haiti had no forward planning and basically totally messed up their economic by plundering their natural resources, internal power struggles and greed.

 

Off topic: Are you seriously blaming poor people for being poor?

 

 

 

World is just over populated and exponentially getting worse. 

 

The world needs more healthy babies and less new iPhone models. 

[Johnny20270]

Off topic: Are you seriously blaming poor people for being poor?

 

 

Absolutely not. I blame greedy corrupt criminal politicians for destroying a country like Haiti and other countries around the world (e.g Zimbabwe). Its the poor that suffer. I fully understand that people on poverty lines are not interested in idealism and.'greater good'. They are not trying to starve and get by day by day.

 

 

The world needs more healthy babies and less new iPhone models. 

 

 

We need less of both (babies and iPhones). That's just the sad reality I'm afraid. War / famine and mass destitution is very sadly  ... inevitable.

[Angelina]

Don't be that pessimistic. There are problems, but you can't be sure that destitution is inevitable. 

[Lu]

I think Angelina perhaps meant that more of the babies in the world should be healthy. I agree that it'd be better if there were less babies overall.

Famine and mass destitution should be inevitable. There are enough smart people with good ideas to make it happen. It'll probably take a while to implement it, but I'd like to believe in the possibility.