戛納

[Ian_Lee]

Why does Mainland media translate Cannes as 戛納? Is the translation based on the French pronunciation?

[ala]

Yeah. French voiceless consonants p, t, k/c are unaspirated, so like Pinyin b, d, g

[gato]

Yeah. French voiceless consonants p, t, k/c are unaspirated, so like Pinyin b, d, g

I don't understand how this explains why Cannes is translated as "jia na", In French, Cannes is pronounced like "kong" of Hong Kong, just one syllable. Since the convention is to use two characters even for a one-syllable name, why not 康纳 instead 戛纳？

[ala]

I don't understand how this explains why Cannes is translated as "jia na", In French, Cannes is pronounced like "kong" of Hong Kong, just one syllable. Since the convention is to use two characters even for a one-syllable name, why not 康纳 instead 戛纳？

I believe it's a nasal vowel in French plus an n final. Nasal vowels sound like there is no nasal final sometimes. No, in French it is not pronounced like 康, more like 港.

戛 = is pronounced [ka?] (unaspirated) in Wu dialects.

The second syllable 纳 in Wu dialects is pronounced very short, like a schwa.... almost devoiced.

The term is obviously coined in Shanghainese.

[skylee]

The city is called 康城 in Hong Kong.

[smalldog]

I can think of two similar examples: 加拿大/Canada and 家乐福/Carrefour. I'm sure there are more.

[gato]

I believe it's a nasal vowel in French plus an n final. Nasal vowels sound like there is no nasal final sometimes. No, in French it is not pronounced like 康, more like 港.

To sound like 港, wouldn't it need to start with a "g" as in "la guerre" or "les gaulois"? "Ca" is pronounced like "kah" in English.

http://french.about.com/library/begin/bl-begpronunciation.htm

C k can café, sucre

G g gag gants, une bague

[ala]

To sound like 港' date=' wouldn't it need to start with a "g" as in "la guerre" or "les gaulois"? "Ca" is pronounced like "kah" in English.

[url']http://french.about.com/library/begin/bl-begpronunciation.htm[/url]

C k can café, sucre

G g gag gants, une bague

No....

Except for tr, cr, pr and a few other exceptions... French p, t, c/k are almost always voiceless UNASPIRATED.

Mandarin doesn't have voiced consonants; it doesn't have the g in gants, bague. Hanyu Pinyin b, d, g are voiceless unaspirated; while European/Japanese b, d, g are voiced. Which is why the old Wade-Giles used p, t, k and why Hong Kong is not Hong Gong.

The only Chinese dialects to have a full set of voiced consonants are the Wu dialects.

You speak Shanghainese, right?

Then you should be able to differentiate this (voiced consonants require you to vibrate your vocal cords and lips):

茄 /g/ 番茄 (tomato) voiced --> this is identical to the French g

家 /k/ 自家 (self) voiceless unaspirated --> this is usually identical to French c

卡 /k'/ 卡车 (truck) voiceless aspirated

The same for:

萄 /d/ 葡萄 (grape) voiced --> This is identical to the French d

到 /t/ 报到 (to register) voiceless unaspirated --> this is usually identical to French t

套 /t'/ 套子 (holder, case) voiceless aspirated

The same for:

陪 /b/ 六倍 (six-fold) voiced --> this is identical to the French b

班 /p/ 西班牙 (Spain) voiceless unaspirated --> this is usually identical to French p

配 /p'/ 配合 (accompaniment) voiceless aspirated

Also pay attention to how you say: open, opera, okra, spy, stay, sky in English; the p, t, k are all voiceless unaspirated.

Consonant types of some languages:

English:

- Voiced

- Voiceless (mostly aspirated, rarely unaspirated see above examples).

French:

- Voiced

- Voiceless (mostly unaspirated, aspirated when followed by r)

Japanese:

- Voiced

- Voiceless (first syllable aspirated, subsequent voiceless consonants are unaspirated, e.g. Tanaka)

Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Gan:

- Voiceless unaspirated

- Voiceless aspirated

Shanghainese/Wu:

- Voiced

- Voiceless unaspirated

- Voiceless aspirated

The Wu dialect characters with voiced consonants pretty much match the Japanese voiced characters (Go-on).

[gato]

No....

Except for tr' date=' cr, pr and a few other exceptions... French p, t, c/k are almost always voiceless UNASPIRATED.

The only Chinese dialects to have a full set of voiced consonants are the Wu dialects.

You speak Shanghainese, right?

Then you should be able to differentiate this:

茄 /g/ 番茄 (tomato) voiced --> this is identical to the French g

家 /k/ 自家 (self) voiceless unaspirated --> this is usually identical to French c[/quote']

Even in Shanghainese, aren't the "k" sound of 康 （健康）and "g" (as in "gut") sound of "家“ different, as they are different in Mandarin?

To me, "Cannes" sounds much closer to 康 (kang) than 戛/家 (jia in Mandarin), whether you're using Shanghainese or Mandarin for the Chinese pronunciation. I don't know anything about aspiration or voicing, save for what I just read from a quick googling. But I do speak some French. Are you saying 戛/家 (unaspirated "gah" in Shanghainese) was chosen over 康 (aspirated "khan") because "Cannes" starts with an unaspirated "k"? It seem that translators have made getting the right aspiration as a top priority. I'm still puzzled as to why. It seems to me that the aspiration is a minor if you're transliterating. The breathiness of the sound in the transliteration seems like should be a minor detail. Wouldn't you want to get the overall sound as close as possible?

Why wouldn't "beijing" (or "bayjin") be a better English transliteration of Beijing than "Peiking"? "b" as in the "b" of "bay" or "baseball," both of which are unaspirated, as well, if I understand "aspirated" correctly.

[ala]

Are you saying 戛/家 (unaspirated "gah" in Shanghainese) was chosen over 康 (aspirated "khan") because "Cannes" starts with an unaspirated "k"? It seem that translators have made getting the right aspiration as a top priority. I'm still puzzled as to why.

Because 家/加 sounds exactly like Ca in French. That's also why Carrefore is 家乐福' date=' because the term was also coined in Shanghainese.

The Shanghainese word for "gossip" 嘎山河 gaseiwu is VOICED and is identical to French Ga, and not identical to 加 = Ca.

It seem that translators have made getting the right aspiration as a top priority. I'm still puzzled as to why. It seems to me that the aspiration is a minor if you're transliterating. The breathiness of the sound in the transliteration seems like should be a minor detail. Wouldn't you want to get the overall sound as close as possible?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Aspiration IS a minor detail. That's why Canada is pronounced 加拿大 [ka na da] in Shanghainese (the 加 is voiceless unaspirated, but the 大 is VOICED).

Why wouldn't "beijing" (or "bayjin") be a better English transliteration of Beijing than "Peiking"? "b" as in the "b" of "bay" or "baseball," both of which are unaspirated, as well, if I understand "aspirated" correctly.

English is different from French. "Pé" is a better transcription for French.

There is no aspiration/unaspiration in VOICED consonants, unless we are talking about some Indian dialect which has VOICED aspirated consonants.

For the most part there is only:

VOICED

VOICELESS aspirated

VOICELESS unaspirated

Shanghainese has all three. Mandarin has the last two. French has the first and third. English has the first two.

[ala]

Are you saying 戛/家 (unaspirated "gah" in Shanghainese) was chosen over 康 (aspirated "khan") because "Cannes" starts with an unaspirated "k"? It seem that translators have made getting the right aspiration as a top priority. I'm still puzzled as to why.

Because the consonant 家/加 in Shanghainese sounds exactly like Ca in French (voiceless' date=' unaspirated, fortis). That's also why Carrefore is 家乐福, because the term was also coined in Shanghainese.

The Shanghainese word for "gossip" 嘎山河 gaseiwu is VOICED and is identical to French Ga, and not identical to 加 = Ca.

It seem that translators have made getting the right aspiration as a top priority. I'm still puzzled as to why. It seems to me that the aspiration is a minor if you're transliterating. The breathiness of the sound in the transliteration seems like should be a minor detail. Wouldn't you want to get the overall sound as close as possible?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Aspiration IS a minor detail, the main thing is Voicing. That's why Canada is pronounced 加拿大 [ka na da] in Shanghainese (the 加 is voiceless unaspirated, but the 大 is VOICED).

Why wouldn't "beijing" (or "bayjin") be a better English transliteration of Beijing than "Peiking"? "b" as in the "b" of "bay" or "baseball," both of which are unaspirated, as well, if I understand "aspirated" correctly.

English is different from French. "Pé" is a better transcription for French, that's probably also why the French are still using Pékin.

There is no aspiration/unaspiration in VOICED consonants, unless we are talking about some obscure Indian dialect which has voiced aspirated consonants.

For the most part there is only:

VOICED

VOICELESS aspirated

VOICELESS unaspirated

Shanghainese has all three. Mandarin has the last two. French and Classical Latin are mostly the first and third. English and German are mostly the first two.

The problem is that there are only 2 sets of Latin letters: p, t, k, s, f versus b, d, g, z, v. But by convention, b, d, g, z, v are used for voiced consonants; so ph, th, kh are adopted from Greek to romanize languages that further distinguish the voiceless consonants by aspiration.

[ala]

Likewise, "papa" in French sounds exactly like the Shanghainese 爸爸 [pa pa]。

Listen to this Oxford recording:

http://www.askoxford.com/mp3/f_a1.MP3

[gato]

Because 家/加 sounds exactly like Ca in French. That's also why Carrefore is 家乐福' date=' because the term was also coined in Shanghainese.

The Shanghainese word for "gossip" 嘎山河 gaseiwu is VOICED and is identical to French Ga, and not identical to 加 = Ca.[/quote']

Are you sure? 家/加 has a "g" sound (like 咖 of 咖喱 in Mandarin), whereas "ca" in French has a "k" sound, so they are not identical. How do you say "康“ in Shanghainese? With a "k" or a "g"? I say with a "k."

[ala]

How do you say "康“ in Shanghainese? With a "k" or a "g"? I say with a "k."

Of course with a k and it's aspirated. Your point?

[gato]

Of course with a k and it's aspirated. Your point?

Cannes is pronounced with a "k," so why not use "康“ which also is with a "k"?

[ala]

Your posts so far have been, "do you think it sounds like a k or g?". These are subjective questions that depend on what language you are basing off from.

French "papa" sounds like "baba" in Mandarin and "papa" in Japanese.

Mandarin "baba" sounds closer to English "bahbah" than to English "pahpah".

English "open" sounds like Mandarin "oben".

This is a moot discussion.

In the end, the Shanghainese 爸爸 [pa pa] is still identical with the French papa [pa pa], regardless if it sounds like the Mandarin or English baba to most Chinese (because Mandarin doesn't have voiced consonants). The French papa and the Shanghainese are both are voiceless, unaspirated and fortis. The same goes for t, k/c.

Cannes is pronounced with a "k," so why not use "康“ which also is with a "k"?

Because for the most part, French p, t, c's are fortis voiceless unaspirated. And since Shanghainese have fortis aspirated voiceless consonants as well, why not just use that?

Ever wonder why the Beer is 啤酒 pijiu in Mandarin? Because 啤 is pronounced with a VOICED /bi/ in Shanghainese that is identical to the English b.

The classic Chinese accent when speaking English is that most Chinese people assume Hanyu Pinyin b,d,g to be English b,d,g or that they can't pronounce voiced consonants. You being Shanghainese, have no problem pronouncing the English b,d,g,j,z,zh,v, but many other Chinese (not raised in the states) can't pronounce them.

The only reason you think 爸 sounds more like ba than pa is because 1. you grew up with Hanyu Pinyin and 2. English is mostly voiced vs. voiceless ASPIRATED. If you were French, you would think it very natural to spell Shanghainese's 爸爸 as papa.

[ala]

Terminology:

Voiced = consonants require vibration of vocal cords to pronounce. Usually longer in duration, lower in pitch, and you can feel your lips vibrating when you cover your palm over your mouth. European, Shanghainese, Japanese b, d, g. Mandarin doesn't have this.

Voiceless = Opposite of above.

- Voiceless aspirated = When air escapes from your mouth as you pronounce the voiceless consonant. e.g, Hanyu Pinyin p, t, k; English p, t, k (except after s)

- Voiceless unaspirated = When little air escape from your mouth as you pronounce the voiceless consonant. e.g., Hanyu Pinyin b, d, g, French p, t, c (not before r, or oi), English p, t, k after s (like in sky, stay, spy).

Fortis = strong, pronounced with more muscle force. Most European voiceless consonants are also fortis. But Mandarin voiceless unaspirated (Hanyu Pinyin b,d,g) are lenis. Shanghainese voiceless unaspirated however are fortis like French.

Lenis = weak. Most European voiced consonants are lenis.