How independent study has worked well for me

[MariaMaria]

Hi.

 

I just want to write a little about studying Chinese independently and that it's possible to really progress rapidly even independently and not in a program.

I don't know what's best for everyone, I don't want to seem like I know what's good for you and I really don't want to seem like I'm a bragging and arrogant idiot. I really like to study foreign languages and cultures, but I know I'm young and I'm not language genius. But I was encouraged by Roddy to post something, I actually didn't want to at first but he's right that maybe it could help motivate to other people.

I studied Chinese in Europe for 1 semester, then I came to Asia. I went into a program with other foreigners. It has good reputation, but I wasn't happy. It wasn't bad, many people learn Chinese well in that program and other ones just like it. But I was frustrated by lots of things. The speed was very slow because the class had to progress at the rate of the slowest group of people in the class. The teaching style was very fixed and reminded me of doing government forms because everything had to be completed according to many rules and nothing could be done quickly to move forward to the next thing even if you have already finished previous part. I made progress in vocabulary and characters because I memorized many words. But even living in the country, I wasn't getting better at speaking, only at doing the class exercises. I became depressed when I realized that even though I was good in the course, I could understand almost nothing of basic conversations I heard between some native speakers on a bus. I became even more upset when I realized I was good at reading class exercises but that they're very controlled for foreign students and I couldn't understand the full meaning of almost anything written by and for native speakers in the real world.

I also really didn't like that pronunciation isn't so important in the program. It's just too much work for the teacher to correct every tone mistake from every student, so the teacher accepts bad pronunciation and then the foreigners' pronunciation even was sounding more normal to me than the Chinese of native speakers, which is crazy.

Of course I tried to meet native speakers and talk in real places with them, but my level wasn't good enough to talk to native speakers very long. But because I couldn't talk to the native speakers, I wasn't getting better at talking. An endless negative spiral with only a very slow way out, so frustrating! The program seemed like safety, but bad safety, because I decided that regarding foreign language conversation skills, only my English was improving because of talking with my foreign classmates. But I didn't go to Asia to improve my English, this is so silly!

I know that Chinese is hard and it takes time to learn well. I know that thousands of foreigners have done programs like this and became good level speakers. But I'm impatient and I don't want to wait so long to achieve a good level. I also thought that there are many foreigners who quit Chinese exactly because it's frustrating to make progress so slowly. I realized that in fact, many foreigners even who go to the programs in Asia quit at not very high levels, and I worried I would be also fed up and quit and never speak well.

I talked to people and researched what to do. I thought a lot about homestay. I really like the idea. Very good for improving language rapidly if you are in the right situation. I saw some stories of foreigners who went from zero to HSK 5 in less than a year (here's one boy's story, I know that school has teachers who write on this forum). So I was going to do homestay, but at the end I decided that living situation wasn't comfortable for me. I wanted to be independent. Also I wanted a cheaper way.

I read a lot about how to study independently and I discovered a post on this forum here about it. That post was so helpful. Basically, I used that as a guide to hold my hand and I studied independently in this way since spring.

If you're thinking about studying independently, I want to tell you that it's possible and that it worked for me. I don't kid you, it really works. It's really scary at first to make your own path, but it really made me not just much better at Chinese, but much more self-confident in life overall. Also it was much more enjoyable and very much cheaper.

So I went on my own and I hired tutors to help me who weren't professional language teachers.

I really laugh when I write that last sentence above. Because there is so much in that sentence which was crazy for me when I started. Going alone to create and walk on my own path is crazy. Of course I hadn't told many people what I was going to do because they all told me how stupid it is, also my family didn't tell until after a month because that would have been nightmare of negativity. Also, I know there are many important businessmen who work in China and write on this forum, but for me, being a boss and finding and hiring people was crazy. I had never hired someone in my life. I felt like an actress pretending so much at first that I know what I'm doing when I talked with people about salary and conditions, but it became much easier with experience.

I also worried a little about not having teachers who have professional language skills, but in my experience I have seen that professional languages teachers even in great programs can be good or bad, it depends more on the person and less on the institution and experience. Maybe for advanced studies, translation, and linguistics, the experience of the teacher is more important. But for my level, I just wanted people to talk to me and help me and correct me, so if the person is an educated native speaker who is nice and patient, that's enough. There are so many very good internet resources in many languages to learn Chinese, so I wanted lots of practice, I don't need lectures about grammar from someone. (Also, I don't need to worry if my university at home will recognize the study, so that gave me freedom. If you need to be in official program because of your university, then it could be harder for you to be independent.).

Regarding getting tutors for independent study, I agree mostly with the advice in that post on this forum about independent study. I thought it would be hard to find, but the most important thing I can tell you is that it's really, really easy to find tutors when you're in the country. I had 8 main tutors in the last 6 months, plus lots of other half-tutors. It's nice to have many tutors so it doesn't become boring with just 2 or 3 always the same people. Also, I liked to talk about same topic with many people, because it reinforced the same vocabulary, gave me different opinions, and showed me how quickly I was progressing.

I met with tutors for 2-4 hours each day. I paid people about 5 US dollars per hour of working, but they all spent much more time talking to me than what I paid them so my average price per hour was probably 3-4.

My experience is that university students are the best. They are fun, smart, many free-time hours, good at focusing on all little mistakes, patient about correcting me. They also think fast and the lesson goes fast. Older people are more difficult. 30 year old people is actually still ok, but I found that 34 is maximum limit, after that they are more slow and every point is talked about so much I become bored. Maybe the problem is because they are not professional teacher, but they feel so much responsibility to teach me well so they think there is pressure and become slow-thinking. I don't know. Everyone different, but that is my experience this year.

About my level, I really am proud of how good my Chinese has become now. Normal communication with native speakers is easy. I understand most of TV and movies as long as it's not specialized vocabulary or slang or regional accents. Last month, I read a novel in Chinese from start to end!! ) I can't say it was easy, but I am in happy shock that I actually understood the book and was able to have conversations with people about it in a deep way.

Recently I have seen some foreigners who in the spring were at my level, and it's incredible how much more advanced I am now. The difference is so clear in the real world. They struggle to have deep communication with native speakers who are not teachers, they can't read different things quickly or completely, they don't understand TV shows, their accent is much worse, even I hear how many tone problems they have. There's no comparison really.  I know this will sound arrogant, I'm sorry and it's not my character to boast. But I decided to tell this because it's important to know this for people who are nervous to leave a program and study independently that it really is possible to do much better.

 

I think at beginning and intermediate levels, it really is no comparison even for the same amount of study time. In independent study with personal tutor, every hour is personal lesson with a native speaker. It really makes you work much harder because you know that there's no place to escape and there's no hope that other students will save you if they sound just as stupid as you. The expectations are very high because the standard is native speaker perfection, and that is very big motivation. For me, that is great. I like that my motivation is to communicate with native speakers, rather than to do well on tests for foreigners.

 

You only hear native speaker accents and you only model native speaker grammar. I also find the tutors without experience really care very much about my progress because I'm the only person they have ever taught. They do so much for me, they really push me, they give me much extra help all the time, even when we don't meet. For many of my tutors, I'm the first foreign person which they ever have conversation, so they also are very interested in culture topics and that's also why they spend so much extra time with me.

It's also much more pleasant than a program with others. If you spend many hours over many months talking face to face with a tutor, you get to know the characteristics of each person. That really is one of my biggest pleasures this year. I find many times surprise that we are similar in how we look at friends and family issues and even have the same taste in such things as art and fashion. I like the depth of each person and it is very exciting to see how similar we are despite that we are coming from very different cultures.

Independent study has been very good for me, but I know it's not for everyone. I hope this can help you learn more to see what it is and if it is for you. But no matter how or where or with whom you study, the most important factor is you. If you are motivated and work hard every day consistently, you will make good progress. There's no way to cheat that truth. So many people on the internet say they learned fluent Chinese in a few months, but when I see videos, they speak horribly. There is no way to reach high levels but to work really hard, spend many hours studying every day. So no matter if you are in a great program, or study independently, or just sit around and talk to friends, I really believe your hard work is the most important key to success. In my case, independent study was the best way, but no matter what, the key is consistent hard work over time.

I hope that reading this someone else who was scared will now feel a little bit more confident to study independently also!  :D
 

[Shelley]

Thanks for sharing. I am glad you have found a way that suited you.

[Wang7]

MariaMaria;

Very interesting post.  How long did it take you to transition from a beginner's level to the relative fluency you are at now (HSK 5) with tutors?  Thanks.

[grawrt]

MariaMaria;

 

You just inspired me to find a tutor. I've been hesitating for a while but after reading this I realize I should just do it. Thanks for the great write up!

[MariaMaria]

 

Very interesting post.  How long did it take you to transition from a beginner's level to the relative fluency you are at now (HSK 5) with tutors?  Thanks.

I had a semester at home and then some time in the program before I started on my own with tutors. Then I have spent half a year with tutors independently. About HSK, I'm probably above HSK5, I think somewhere in the 6 range, but I don't care about it. I used to care about testing levels, but spending time outside of programs and in the real world made me realise that tests for foreigners are not very important. What matters is your level compared to native speakers, in other words, if you understand well conversations and movies and internet, can communicate, and read and write native level material. Being independent was very good to make me clear my head and live in the real world.

[ChTTay]

Great write up. Makes me feel bad about my Chinese haha which is probably what I need.

What was your study schedule like? I mean, you watched TV, tried to speak, read books etc. what was a typical day of self study like for you? Did you have a schedule at all?

Did you use textbooks? If so, which?

You mention not needing to be lectured about grammar in a class. What did you do if you needed clarification? Did you find students / novice "tutors" we're able to help you understand this?

[ThomasParadis]

Thank you ! You don't sound arrogant at all and hearing from your experience is very interesting. 

It always encouraging to learn about students who've succeeded before us.

加油，祝你成功 ！

[Wang7]

MariaMaria;

 

If what you say is true about your journey to fluency (and I have no doubt about the veracity of your truthfulness) I think it should be added  that you are a very intelligent individual, who speaks English, Chinese Mandarin and quite possibly another language as well. I stand behind my statement because you have spent a modicum of time studying Chinese Mandarin ("a semester at home...some time in a program...(and) started on my own with tutors") compared to most. Bravo to you; I wish I had your learning skill set. I think most self learners on this board would chorus what I have said about your journey to fluency ("HSK 5, maybe 6"). Somehow (because you have omitted discussing periodic targeted learning objectives, goals, and self - assessments) you have found the Holy Grail of Mandarin fluency. I think for those of us who have read and responded to your most interesting post, it would be very appreciative if you could provide further detail to the following questions (posted by  ChTTay):

1) "what was your study schedule like (hours per day, per week of study)?

2) "did you watch TV?

3) "what books did you use?"

4) "how did you master Chinese grammar?"

and 5) how many months/years did it take for you to reach HSK 5?

 

I truly believe that there are no shortcuts to success for most people including my self. However, learning the "rules of the road" certainly help on reaching the targeted  goal. I think your journey to fluency would greatly enhance my ability, as well as others, understanding on how to reach fluency . Thanks, MariaMaria, I hope you have the time to answer the questions that I posted above. Happy Holidays.

[roddy]

"I was encouraged by Roddy to post something, I actually didn't want to at first but he's right that maybe it could help motivate to other people."

For background, Maria got in touch with me to see if I could help her get in touch with Tamu, who she wanted to thank for his post, which she links to. Maria was reluctant to post about her experiences as she felt as a relative newcomer she didn't have much to offer. I'm glad to see she changed her mind - this is currently the fifth most popular post of the year.

 

One learner's experiences may not be directly applicable to others - everyone's circumstances are different. But it's still interesting, and - as grawrt's post shows - can be motivational. 

 

Thanks, Maria!

[mouse]

Thanks for this. It's always useful to hear about the experiences of others, and I agree with everything you say.

[MariaMaria]

I'm sorry I didn't respond until today. I've gone with family for vacation. Plus, it took me a long time to understand the English in one of the responses here. So I write now big post to answer and to motivate to other learners!!

There are lots of information available about studying in programs such as universities or language schools, and/or doing homestay. But studying independently in the country with tutors is less well documented, so that's why I wrote the post above.

For me, this way helped me become not just better in Chinese, but acquire important life-skills and become more self-confident overall. I found this way more fun, more interesting, better learning, more encouraging and cheaper than studying in a program. 

But I don't pretend that I know what's best for everyone. Roddy's point that everyone are different is very important. Everyone should find the way which works best for your circumstances and your personality. The differences between various language learning methods are zero when compared to the bigger question of whether you're going to be able to continue the studying for a very, very long time.

 

It takes hundreds of hours of study for languages similar to your native language. For languages which are not in the same family, especially for Chinese with its difficult writing system, it's more like thousands of hours. Spending so much time learning to communicate things which you already know how to say perfectly and with no effort in your own language is very frustrating for adults, and I know personally how strong is the urge to quit.

I used to spend lotsa time looking for tricks and tips to save time and learn foreign language faster. But I learned there are no incredible secrets or shortcuts and I've become very skeptical about all the language learning e-books, courses, and advice for sale on the internet from bloggers, learning gurus, and self-declared polyglot-community leaders.    It seems to me that because language learning requires so many hours of solitary, frustrating study, it creates an atmosphere like Middle Age cults where competition, frustration and desperate longing for secret shortcuts combine to make people lower standards and suspend disbelief. Some methods and technologies can help different people and marginally make things easier than standard brute force. But I've decided that if someone creates method by which to reach high level in a foreign language in massively shorter and easier way, then it will be huge world news and that person will justifiably become rich, famous, and making one of biggest jumps in scientific history for understanding human brain. But until that day, there's just hard work and hundreds of frustrating hours for us learners.

So no matter which place or method of language learning you choose, the most important is that it is motivating enough to you that you will do all the hours required of studying, revising, and exercises. From my experiences this year, I discovered that for the same amount of time, one-on-one individual lessons are more challenging and progressing for me than group lessons, but if the group lessons in program are more fun and motivating for you and you will just quit individual lessons, than that's the better choice for you.

@ChTTay and @Wang7 asked about how I studied. OMG, @Wang7, I must say that the vocabulary in your post was too much for me   :

 

veracity of your truthfulness ... I stand behind my statement ... a modicum of time ... Bravo to you ... would chorus what I have said ... periodic targeted learning objectives, goals, and self-assessments ... Holy Grail of Mandarin fluency...

 

I've never seen such phrases on an internet forum. I even asked native English speaker friends how to interpret it ; from their reactions , I learned some new very fun slang expressions of description in English !

But about the details of my study methods, I didn't describe them in my original post above because they're very standard and I just wanted to motivate to people to know that it's possible to learn independently and not in a program or homestay. The details of how to study and time percentages and such can be different for everyone, but I think just hundreds of hours of exposure in any form is the best haha! One thing I didn't like about the program where I studied is that it put too much emphasis on, well, exactly this question of how to study, rather than just getting exposure and repeating constantly. I like this forum post by @icebear:

 

Over time posts like the above and my own experiences have led me to believe that its better to overwhelm yourself and see what sticks rather than get lost in the details of a tricky word/grammar point. With that in mind, I'd suggest limiting yourself to no more than 1 hour of English per day (written, spoken, etc) and ensuring the remainder of your day is in Chinese near your level - be it with language exchange, multiple textbook series, audio/video, or otherwise...

I don't think time spent reading in English about study techniques should count towards your Chinese study time, either.

 

 

One of my Chinese-speaking foreigner heroes is Julien Gaudfroy. He described this related issue very well:

 

Unfortunately most education systems these days [...], in order to make people feel good while learning, they [try to] make sure you understand BEFORE learning. What a waste of time!

Sometimes the more you think, the less you learn. Which also means that at the end, you are less able to think. Think of that: the main reason why we study a language faster in its country is because we don't understand anything. You keep hearing words and wondering what they mean, and will remember them before knowing their meaning. Which means when you start using them you'll do it naturally!

Saying all that, the details of how I study are very basic. It's very standard: I followed basically everything that was written in this post by @Tamu. His post inspired me, gave me guiding hand, and was most influence in my life since high school. The Claudia Ross grammar book "Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar" which he cites is freely available online, you can download it easily to put it into Anki for memorization. I used many great exercises by @imron cited below, and I made TV/movie SRS database as described by @Tysond in many places such as here and here. I already had done the basics of Chinese study before I started independent study, but during independent study here are the details:

• Conversations with tutors. Very important that they know to correct me immediately upon every mistake in word choice, grammar, or pronunciation. That includes tone mistakes... because if you don't know the tone immediately, you don't know the word!
   
• Pronunciation practice. First, I did tone pairs (sinosplice drills is excellent), then words with same tones (here are some words in this forum post, and here's a even more huge list). For detailed tone work, I used @Tamu's post and academic research. Then, I've been doing shadowing exercises every day. It's discussed in many places online; on this forum, @imron's ideas here are great. All of these exercises I've been doing both alone and with tutors. 
   
• Characters: Memorize most common radicals. Then memorize hsk word lists. It's not fun, but you have to do it. At least Anki makes it a little more efficient.
   
• Reading: Everyone's different, but I don't like graded readers. I started with emails and chat from tutors, then very short articles from magazines (usually about fashion and gossip, I'm an expert now in Chinese haha!). I used the articles as conversation topic with tutors, so vocabulary is reinforced. I started with newspaper articles after a few months, then I read my first full book last month!! For reading speed, @imron's ideas are, once again, the best advice.
   

About time, I studied one semester at home, plus about one month (with break in between) in program in country. Then I've studied about 7 months independently with tutors. My schedule in independent study is 2-4 official hours each day with tutors, 1-4 hours unofficial hours with tutors or Chinese-native-speaker friends, 3 hours daily study alone, plus 5-10 hours each week of actively watching movies or TV shows and noting new vocabulary. So at least 60 hours each week of direct Chinese study, plus the indirect exposure of living 24/7 in country, speaking everywhere with people and rarely having contact with foreigners in any European languages!

In total time, that's a little more than a year since starting, with maybe 150 hours in uni and then program in country, then 1,700 hours of independent study.

My heroes are the foreigners who reach incredible levels. Some are famous like Dashan and Julien Gaudfroy, but many foreigners learn Chinese very well but don't want media exposure or to become minor celebrities on TV (I'm not nearly good enough, but even if I were, I know that I don't want to be minor celebrity on TV, God no!). All those foreigners, the famous and the not famous, say that the more Chinese that you learn, the more you realize how little you understand about Chinese and about life. I'm still young and not advanced stage yet, but I've begun to realise the wisdom of that thinking. I have much more work to do and I want to progress further. But I'm happy now that I'm at level where the language is no longer an obstacle to learning, but has becomes a tool to help me learn more both about Chinese and about all subjects. It's such a pleasure that I can now use the Chinese language pretty painlessly to get explanations for new things in Chinese.
 
I was nervous to make that initial post on this page (and this post too!) because I thought I'm not advanced enough in my level to make big contribution. But Roddy motivated to me by telling me to imagine another girl out there not sure if she should move to China or Taiwan, feeling a bit nervous and needs a little encouragement. I know that I needed encouragement and someone to show me that it's possible. So now I write a lot in order that I pass the encouragement to her. I say to her and to anyone who is thinking about it, that it's definitely possible to start from zero and learn Chinese on your own in country. Everyone can do it, you don't need to be special genius. If you want to do it in uni or programs, that works, but if you want to do it independently in country, my example shows that it's really possible. It takes lots of work and discipline and many hard hours every day, but it really is possible.

I like this quote from Julien Gaudfroy:
 

Your natural talent for language only accounts for a small part of your achievement. All the rest is your persistence...

Most of the time people who always ask WHY are bad learners, because there's not much logic in the grammar or the way people speak in the mother language. Why is it this way? Because it IS this way! I was one of those WHY people, but hard work made me realize I was wrong.

Remember, always listen a lot more than you speak or practise, and read and write a lot. Don't write by yourself in the first two years, just copy anything you can all the time. This way you'll get used to not making mistakes.

The very reason why we study faster in the country is because we don't understand much and have to make the listening effort 24/7. It has nothing to do about gifts. Being gifted is more about being able to find out the best method and elimitate the useless ones in a short period of time. When I see how somebody is studying I can tell how his Chinese will be after two years.

Have the courage of imitating everything, especially when you don't understand. Because at the beginning that will focus you on listening a lot, and also focus you on feeling the words and how they're used a lot more.

[P]eople who want perfection and long term mastering, go my way. Perfection for a few months, mix my principles with others.

If you don't care about perfection and just see a language as a simple communication tool, then you can ignore me. And after a few years you'll still see my success as the luck I have being gifted and not having to practise as hard as you have.

Don't forget that I combined my method with 24/7 full attention for quite a few years. So my two cents are: you can do it, are you ready to work that hard?

Good luck!

[Wang7]

MariaMaria; Thanks, again!  Happy New Year!

[Motek]

MariaMaria, you're awesome, thanks for taking the time to write this - it is super helpful and encouraging. I'm another foreign girl in China trying to learn Chinese, haha, so I guess you wrote this just for me ;) I have a couple more logistical questions for you... how did you find your non-teacher tutors? Also, I realize this is not necessarily applicable in different situations, but how did you handle the visa allowing you to stay in China for a long time without working or studying full-time? Thanks a lot, I'm saving your post, take care!

[dementior]

hi Maria thanks a lot for sharing your experience!

maybe I missed it but... where were you located geographically?

I mean when you came to China, just curious

 

take care

[Kado]

Maria,

Your post inspired my belief in independent study and the possibility of reaching a high level of Mandarin without formal study. Thanks for your contributions!