Using 还 in degree complement

[alayeer]

Hi all. I'm a bit confused about the structure when using particle 得. Suppose I want to say "He still can't speak Chinese very well", according to the Chinese textbook I am currently using, it's going to be 他的中文还说得不好.

My question is, can I replace the position of 还, to be 他的中文说得还不好 instead? I found the latter to sound more natural to me, it's like the English equivalent of "His spoken Chinese is still not good".

Is it alright to use the latter sentence?

Many thanks!

[Tiana]

1.他的中文还说得不好.

2.他的中文说得还不好.

(1) is a natural order in Chinese, it simply means someone's Chinese is not yet there. (2) is a correct sentence but the word order is marked so it carries some negative implication, possibly something like s/he is slow learner, although he has been learning Chinese for a long time/ going to classes for several years/ working on it days and nights and is STILL no good at speaking it. For this reason, you don't hear (2) often in neutral, unmarked contexts.

[alayeer]

Thanks a lot for the answer!

[Divato]

Actually, I think both are commonly used and the latter one doesn't carry more negative implications than the former. The order will make differences but I don't have an explanation. For example, 我吃的还不够 sounds more natural to me than 我还吃的不够.

If you are looking for a more negative one, you may use 还是 instead. It can make the implications that Tiana mentioned.

[Tiana]

Thanks for your information, Davito. I'm familiar with (还)是 being used for emphasis but the sentence proposed by the OP is NOT a case of emphasis, but a subtle contrast with the original sentence. It's a way of conveying what is meant without causing offence to the subject of the conversation. The placement of adverbs within the sentence is often used for this but it is not a fixed rule, and therefore does not automatically bring about a difference between harmless constructions such as "我吃的还不够" vs "我还吃的不够".

Still, I'm open to all suggestions.

[Secniz]

Yes you can. grammer in chinese is very loose. but these two words 还 and 得 have other meanings in different Situations. some word has different Pronunciation. sometimes even they have the same Pronunciation, their meanings are not the same.

他的中文还（hai）说得不好 this 还 means he still cant , 还(huan)钱 this means pay back, and 欲说还（huan）休 this means but or then，and in archaic chinese this can also instead 环 which means around.

And the word 得 means more. now in china ,的 地 得 have different meanings.得(de)到 means get, 你得(dei)吃饭 means you have to, 得(de)了吧 means  oh!come on! 干得(de)好 this得 has no meaning,it's being used as a Particle word. 得！means fine okay.

so don't try to Clarify a single word, it's more important to use them in daily topic.~

[Tiana]

Welcome to the forum, Secniz!

I like your Ultra Chinese

[Secniz]

Thanks tiana~ 

[TheBigZaboon]

OP: All the previous posters have given you their best advice, and you see how nuanced slight deviations in a sentence can be.

 

I think the only thing I can add is to be careful of the idea you mention in your post that 'I found the latter to sound more natural to me, it's like the English equivalent of "His spoken Chinese is still not good".' It should only feel natural to you after you've mastered the Chinese way of saying something, and then used it until you've internalized it through constant repetition and use. What it feels like compared to English is of no real consequence, and can be downright self-defeating. If you're not careful, you can wind up speaking "Chinese with English characteristics," and I'm sure you want to avoid that.

[alayeer]

Thanks a lot for the replies. Will surely keep all your suggestions in mind!

So basically both sentences can be used in daily life, however the latter sounds a bit more negative that the former, right? I'm confused about using 还 since the rule is not mentioned in the textbook Im using and not even in the internet. So I wondered whether 还 should ALWAYS be placed before V+得 or can be placed after V+得.   

Glad to know that both sentences are at least grammatically correct!

[Tiana]

So I wondered whether 还 should ALWAYS be placed before V+得 or can be placed after V+得. 

 

It's not possible to say "should ALWAYS", as there are situations where it doesn't make any difference where you put it (see examples in post 3). But when it may cause "some loss to someone" (literally of figuratively) then it may be worth considering its placement (examples in post 2). When you put 还 closer to a negative element, it tends to heighten that element.

[anonymoose]

For what it's worth, I asked a native speaker about the two sentences in #2, and she said they have the same meaning (even after I asked if there is even a change in nuance). I will ask some more native speakers and see if the consensus is that the two sentences are identical in meaning or not.

[ZhangJiang]

I think there is a nuance in what is focused in the sentence:

他的中文还说得不好.

他的中文说得还不好.

When used in context, the difference can be seen more easily.

他会说中文，也会说日语。他的日语已经说得不错了，但中文还说得不好。

他既会说中文又会写中文。他的中文说得还不好，但写得已经不错了。or（他的中文写得已经不错了，但说得还不好。）

Note that when used otherwise, it's not necessarily wrong but just not very natural. Hope it helps.

[Secniz]

try to resolve these 2sentences

他中文说得,还不够好

his chinese is not good enough

他中文还,说得不够好

he is still not good at chinese

in fact this is not a replace. it is a nverted sentance. they have the same meaning.so you can use both in most situation. but they have a little difference 他中文说的还不够好 sounds more like it's a pity and 他中文说得还不够好 sounds like he should study harder . of cause in most situations people will ignore this difference.

but i can't tell you every difference in chinese. like i said the most important is to communicate in daily life. usually people can understand what you are saying and they can give you advices.