negation of 有名

[Guest123]

As far as I kow 有 is negated with 没。Does it mean that the negation of 有名 is 没有名？

For example, if I want to ask "Is he famous?", should I say: 他有名没有名？他有没有名？

Francly, sounds weird. 

[Shelley]

You could try just asking 他有名吗?

 

他有没有名？

 

I think this one sounds better, because it is the 有that you are negating. So you are saying - he has not has name?

 

Hope this helps. I am still learning myself so I may have got it wrong.

[Jingqin]

他有没有名    It sounds like " Does he have a name?"

I think “他出不出名” "tā chū bù chū míng ?" would be better. It's easier to be understand.

[Tiana]

I would say "他有名不有名?" (or 他有名吗? as above). 

If you say "他有没有名？", it'd sound like you're asking whether he has a name.

[Pingfa]

Either 他有名吗 or 他是不是很有名 is fine.

[Guest123]

OK, I understand all these possibilities, but if I have to negate 有名，should I say 不有名？

[Lu]

I would say "他有名不有名?"

This sounds wrong to me. Jingqin's and Pingfa's solutions are better.

[Tiana]

This sounds wrong to me. Jingqin's and Pingfa's solutions are better.

 

Yes, but see the question in post 6. The negative of 有名 is 不有名, because 有名 is an adjective, and not an ordinary combination of 有+名.

(Think of "他不太有名" but without the 太, it will be easier to understand what I'm saying)

[Divato]

I think  有名不有名/有不有名 is grammatically correct.

有名 is an adjective. I think most adjectives can be used in __不__ pattern;

知道不知道/知不知道.

欠揍不欠揍/欠不欠揍

帅不帅

However, I would say __吗/不 instead in daily conversation.

It's my personal choice and I don't know which one is used mostly but I have heard both pattern.

 

Besides, if you see 有名 as an adjective, you should know  没 adj is weird. You would't say 帅没帅.

When you see 有 and 名 is independent, 有 is a verb here and 没有 名 simply just means doesn't have name.

[ZhangJiang]

This is an interesting question and it turned out that the negation of 有名 has to be 没有名气.

 

If you view 有名 as an adjective, like 漂亮, then the normal way to negate it is to add 不 in front, like 不漂亮. However, 不有名 sounds wrong to a native speaker. Why? I believe it's because this phrase would be interpreted as 不有|名, which contradicts with the rule that 有 is always negated with 没 not 不. Then why not 不|有名? I think there are two reasons:

 

1)有名 is not actually an adjective but a combination of two parts forming a Verb-Object structure, since you can put stuff in between, like 有了名, 有什么名, 有狗屁的名!(sorry).

2)When facing 不 and an object, verbs just choose to unite more tightly with 不. See the following explanation.

    不吃蔬菜、水果对身体不好 = 不吃蔬菜+不吃水果... 不吃 as a whole was extracted.

    不做饭、不吃饭 can't be said as *不做饭、吃饭 but has to be 不做、不吃饭. It shows that 不 cannot be extracted alone.

 

However, 并不有名 is totally OK. I believe it's because 并 and 不 unite even more tightly than 不+Verb, which now gives 并不|有名 so there is no violation thus everyone is happy.

Hope it helps.

[Shelley]

Once again ZhangJiang clears up the muddy waters that Chinese grammar can create

 

Very good examples and it all makes good sense.

 

Thank you.

[Guest123]

谢谢！

[Divato]

I think Verb-Object structure doesn't mean 有名 is not an adjective. 

出名 is another example.

出什么名

不出名 is also acceptable.

And 不出名 on Baidu has 43,200,000 results

[Divato]

There is a similar Verb-Object structure word 有种

I think 有|种 is not an adjective and it means you have guts.

But If you see 有|名 separately, I think it's totally different meaning.

So I think 有名 is an adjective of 有名气 which is derived from Verb-Object structure.

[muirm]

What about 无名 as the negation of 有名? I think it is less colloquial than 有名, so perhaps not suitable for conversation, but it might be appropriate in a composition.

[Tiana]

What about 无名 as the negation of 有名

 

No, this is not a negation. 无名 is the opposite (or antonym) of 有名. A negation is a grammatical operation: 

不 (太)+ 有名 (adj)

没 + 有名(子)

[muirm]

No, this is not a negation. It's the opposite (or antonym) of 有名

 

I think I agree with you. I often equate 无 with 没有, but I supposed that isn't correct. 无 is the antonym of 有, not the negation. That would make 无名 "lacks name" rather than "doesn't have name".

 

Edit: This made me wonder: does negation always include a syntactic addition, or can it just be a change?

[Tiana]

This made me wonder: does negation always include a syntactic addition, or can it just be a change?

 

It does not have to be an addition, and can be just a substitution:

Positive  = Root+Pos

Negative = Root+Neg 

[muirm]

It does not have to be an addition, and can be just a substitution

Do you have an example in Chinese? Or were you just talking in general about all languages?

[Tiana]

I was talking about languages generally. Chinese doesn't use inflections so it's unlikely to utilise such a pattern (but it may have some isolated exceptions, we never know).