上 grammar

[Skyelar]

What is the purpose of 上 in this sentence?

 

他是国际上最有名的演员。 "He is the most famous actor in the world."

[Demonic_Duck]

I'd assume here “国际上” just means “世界上”, i.e. “in the world”. Looks kinda weird/awkward to me, but I don't know if native speakers would get the same impression from it or not.

[xiaokaka]

国际 is a noun meaning international, and when you add 上 that turns it into an adjective/adverb, meaning international/internationally.

[Skyelar]

If 国际 is a noun, I wouldn't have known; my course does not show parts of speech, and unfortunately only explains through example sentences. The sentence was part of an exercise in which I was supposed to pick the sentence which translated to "He is the most famous actor in the world.". The other choice was "他是亚洲最有名的演员。" The only other structure with 国际 that I can find in the lesson is "国际有名的":

• 是，他是亚洲最有名的演员，也是国际有名的演员。
• 这是一个国际有名的电影，是亚洲的，电影很有意思，我们都喜欢看。

Interestingly, in a matching exercise, the same sentence appears with the same meaning but without 上: 他是国际最有名的演员。

 

Looking back, it would make sense from these examples for 国际 to be a noun, as the 国际s in these sentences could easily be replaced with country or continent nouns such as 亚洲 or 中国 and still make sense. But if 他是国际最有名的演员, why would you want to add the 上 to make 他是国际上最有名的演员? And how, exactly, does the 上-converting-noun-to-adjective/adverb grammar work?

[Guest123]

Well I'd say "He is the most famous actor in the world." is not the best translation if you want to understand chinese grammar. Literaly  他是国际上最有名的演员 means something like "He is internationally most renown actor".

The use of 上 is similar to 中 、里, it forms a sort of locatif with abstract nouns (meaning not physical places, but rather spheres,areas of interest and so on). For example:

历史上 - in history

电影中 - in the film

心里 - in the heart 

 

It is also used to make adverbs (also with the idea of "place", some sphere):

实际上 :  really, in reality

事实上 :  in fact, actually

心理上 :  psycologically, mentally

 

So I think in your sentence 国际上 means "intenrationally, in the international sphere", and of course translate it as "world" is quite correct, it's the same meaning, only grammatical functions of the word "world" in english and of 上 in chinese are different, so this translation is rather misleading.

In this case 国际 and 国际上 are nearly synonimic, I'd say the difference is between something that is international and something that is internationally known. 

[Skyelar]

I would guess that translating the sentence as "he is the most famous actor in the world" rather than "he is internationally the most famous actor" was meant to make the sentence more comfortable. "He is internationally the most famous actor", while making grammatical sense and more closely matching the structure of the original sentence, is a bit awkward. "He is the most famous actor in the world" means the same thing, and is much more likely to come up in a normal English conversation.

 

I think I understand now, but (since my current Chinese level is pretty basic) what is the difference in between using 上, 里, and 中 in this context? Or are they interchangeable here? Would I be able to say "国际里最有名的演员" or "国际中最有名的演员"?

[Guest123]

 

 

 what is the difference in between using 上, 里, and 中 in this context? Or are they interchangeable here? 

They are not interchangeable in this case. There are things that you simply need to memorise. The meaning is close, they all indicate location, but not exacty the same: 里  means "inside", 中 - "in between, in the middle", 上 - "on". So in chinese, depending on how chinese see whether a thing can be "on" or "in" something (both in direct and analogic sense), different word is used. With some words you can use only one of them, with some words you can use both 里 and 中，with some other words 里 and 上... For example, 电影里 - 电影中。心里 - 心上 (though in this case there is a slight difference of meaning). With  国际 you can use only 上。

For the translation, of course, when you translate into english, you must use "english way" to express things. But for learning chinese grammar translation is not always helpful because of different grammar structures 

 

For 国际有名的演员 and 国际上有名的演员，I'd say that in the first sentence 国际 and 有名 gramatically both are attached to演员, like, for example, 国际航空公司 - international airlines; 国际 (international) and 航空 (aviation) are both describing 公司 (company);

and in the second - 国际上 is describing 有名, and only 有名 is directly describing 演员: he is a famous actor; how famous he is, to what extent? - internationally, meaning in the whole world.

[Skyelar]

 

For 国际有名的演员 and 国际上有名的演员，I'd say that in the first sentence 国际 and 有名 gramatically both are attached to演员, like, for example, 国际航空公司 - international airlines; 国际 (international) and 航空 (aviation) are both describing 公司 (company);

and in the second - 国际上 is describing 有名, and only 有名 is directly describing 演员: he is a famous actor; how famous he is, to what extent? - internationally, meaning in the whole world.

Ohh, OK. That's the bit I was missing before. One last question, though - I know that 里 and 上 are often pronounced in the fifth (neutral) tone in these situations. Does the same thing happen to 中, or is it always pronounced in the first tone?

[Guest123]

 

 

里 and 上 are often pronounced in the fifth (neutral) tone in these situations. Does the same thing happen to 中

At least I have never heard 中 pronounced with neutral tone. But I am not sure.