Nikki Posted January 4, 2015 at 09:25 AM Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 09:25 AM Hi I was hoping somebody might be able to help me out. I'm trying to do a bit of research to find out more about my partners Chinese family history, mostly for my son. His grandad moved to England from Shan Ha Wai some time in 50s or 60s I think. He died in 70s leaving very little information. It seems that the village he came from was very small, and in it is something called 'ancestral hall'. There are photos in this hall, and one of them looks very similar to my partners grandad (Hong Ling Chang). I believe he was Tsang before he came to England and westernised his name, which would fit in very well with the history of the village. I'm very eager to hear any thoughts, and specifically to see if anyone can translate the writing in the photos for me, to see if they lead anywhere. Thanks very much in advance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted January 4, 2015 at 10:59 AM Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 10:59 AM And for anybody interested, this is Hong Ling. I'm sure you'll probably agree he has lots of similar features to the woman on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted January 4, 2015 at 08:44 PM Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 08:44 PM Have I posted this in the right place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
889 Posted January 4, 2015 at 09:07 PM Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 09:07 PM This is the right place, but you need to be patient: maybe someone will take an interest in this, maybe not. But to add a couple of points. First, the man in the photo is wearing a rank badge. These come in many categories, depending on just what bird is pictured on the badge, so you need to do some research on it. But keep in mind that rank in ancestral portraits was often upgraded, sometimes even created out of whole cloth. Second, New Territories villages are pretty well documented, and organised. This is partly due to traditional custom, partly due to Government policies which have favoured those descended from the original NT residents. So if I were you, my first point of contact for historical background would be the village representatives. If your son is descended from original NT villagers through the male line, he may benefit from the Small House policy when he comes of age. (Of course if your son benefits from the policy, so would his father.) http://www.landsd.gov.hk/en/legco/house.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted January 4, 2015 at 11:15 PM Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 11:15 PM Thank you for the response, that's very interesting. Apologies if I came across as impatient, I just noticed there were quite a few tattoo posts and mine seemed a little out of place. Although I am a little impatient I guess, simply because I'm excited at the thought of getting some answers This certainly gives me some starting points for more research, and thank you for the link. Do you think the writing on the photos is the names of the people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
889 Posted January 4, 2015 at 11:48 PM Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 at 11:48 PM I don't see any name on the gentleman's portrait; it seems to identify him as part of the 17th generation of the ancestral line. As I said, I'm quite sure that the village representatives at 曾大屋 Tsang Tai Uk have the answers to your questions. The village has become something of a tourist attraction, and the ancestral hall a listed monument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:32 PM Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:32 PM Above the lady's portrait it also says something about her being [the wife of] someone of the 17th generation. On the second line, it says 像遗人安氏陈配淑. That would make her birth name An Peishu, who married into the house of Chen (probably Chan in Cantonese). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamille Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:53 PM Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:53 PM I think it should be read from right to left (otherwise the 十七 becomes 七十, by the way) : 淑配陳氏安人. With 陳 being her maiden name and her first name left unknown, this woman would be the wife of the man on the left (himself being the 17th generation of the bloodline). Besides, this family seems to have 曾 for a name (which, according to my dictionary, would indeed be read "cang", or "tsang"). Your partner's ancestry seems to be on the right side of the aristocracy, Nikki. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
889 Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:59 PM Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 at 02:59 PM Of course this is to be read right to left. I'll add to my suggestion about contacting the village elders that this should be done by someone in the line of descent, not a partner, and that there will be probably be an invitation to donate to the repair fund. Ancestral halls always need repair. (曾 as a Cantonese surname is usually spelled Tsang as an English name.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted January 5, 2015 at 09:32 PM Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 at 09:32 PM Thank you so much everyone, this really is fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flickserve Posted January 7, 2015 at 07:34 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 at 07:34 AM I googled the name of the village - it is a Tsang clan village. Inside the ancestral home, there may possibly be a marble stone with inscription of the lineage - males only. Or the the village may keep a book of the names. Your partner's father (him being about 45 to 60 years old (I guess) might be documented but I doubt your partner and son would be. Having a copy of your partner's father's name in chinese and your partner would be very useful. The 1st picture attachment puts it at around the early-mid 1900's. The gentleman is a portrait and the lady is a photo. Below them should be an altar/shrine with a bowl of ash. The name might be written on there. Each of these villages will have an ancestral home or more. You can pray to your ancestors with lit joss sticks and burn paper money. Pour some chinese tea for them from a flask prepared beforehand. Bring some fruits, place on a plate in front of the pictures on the altar or table there when you first arrive before praying with the joss sticks. You can also put a boiled chicken or roast pork on a plate as well. Do the food before the joss sticks. These foods are spiritual offerings to the ancestors. The joss sticks are stuck in a bowl that has ash in it. Depending on the ancestors, there may be other bowls. You should initially place three lit joss sticks in the main bowl/urn which will be in the centre between the two walls. This represents the main person up the family tree - this might be your partner's great grandfather as it seems he has some official rank in the village. He might have his own ancestral hall separate to the main village ancestral hall which I suspect he does as his picture is hanging there. It depends how senior an official he was. If there are other bowls of ash and smaller shrines the either side of the main bowl/urn, then put three lit joss sticks in each one. If you haven't brought enough, then one joss stick in each bowl is enough. There might be a couple of little container at both sides of the door into the ancestral home. Sometimes on the floor or on the wall. Place one lit joss stick in each one. Any remaining lit joss sticks should go into the main central bowl. Pray again to the ancestors. Pick up the fruits and meat to be consumed later by you. You can leave the joss sticks to burn down. Just before you leave the home on the inside of the door, turn to the altar and bow again. You can actually visit this village very easily in Hong Kong (from what I see in google map). It should be only 10-15 minutes walk from the train station - and HK's train system is much easier than the London underground. I am not sure about the name - Hong Ling Chang. We'd put the surname first and so it becomes Tsang Hong Ling. I can't think of the chinese characters that might fit the 'hong' and 'ling' (my chinese is not good being a BBC). Ling is more like a girls name. Actually, do you have his name in chinese characters? The older people in the village might still remember him. To be become a ranking official, a person must have passed some parts of the imperial exam. The status is very high if one passed the imperial exam. Given the size of the village (it is small in the map), I am a bit doubtful of the status. Something interesting about the names - each generation will have the same forename. So your partner's grandfather will share the same forename with his brothers and male cousins. Subsequently, the next generation (your partner's father) should have the same forename as his brothers and male cousins. Your partner may or may not share the same forename as his cousins the tradition gets lost a couple of generations down the line especially away from HK. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwq Posted January 7, 2015 at 08:34 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 at 08:34 AM 紀榮十七世祖禮傳公遺像 紀榮十七世祖禮傳公 淑配陳氏安人遺像 遺像 Picture of a dead person 紀榮 I don't know, perhaps some kind of title or the name of his father? 十七世祖 17th generation (of the "Tsang" line) 禮傳 Most probably name of the person, so his full name would be 曾禮傳. 公 honorific 淑配 Polite way of saying "Wife". 陳 Former surname of wife 氏 honorific 安人 Title: "Wife of a 六品官" during the Qing Dynasty. 六品官 sixth-ranked official (ranks go from 1 to 9, 1 is the highest) http://baike.baidu.com/view/58103.htm "明 清 時，六品官之妻封安人。" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamille Posted January 7, 2015 at 01:22 PM Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 at 01:22 PM 紀榮 I don't know, perhaps some kind of title or the name of his father? My guess: "In (proud) memory of", or something of the like. Can't find any information about this combination on google but it feels weird that it would be the father's name since the males of this family are all supposed to have 曾 for a family name. So there's still the possibility that it's a Cantonese combination and these characters coupled together really look like they could have this signification, plus it coheres with the whole "hall of the ancestors" stuff. Just trying and guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flickserve Posted January 7, 2015 at 05:44 PM Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 at 05:44 PM It is possible there has been a change of the name from the original name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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