会,能,可以 hui4, neng2, ke2yi3 confusion

[Shelley]

I am trying to understand the differences between the stative verbs of Ability, Possibility and Permission.

 

My text book says 会 is future, probability, ability or skill: will, can.

 

能 is physical ability, capability : can

 

可以 permission: may, can

 

I think understand the difference between 可以 and the other 2 but find it hard to understand the difference between 会 and 能.

 

I am confused by the future, probability part of 会.

 

I think I understand that 能 is the physical ability ie he is tall enough so he can reach the top shelf.

 

I think 会 is the ability to do something after learning a skill.

 

Am I on the right track here or have I missed something?

 

 

[lechuan]

I found the Chinese grammar wiki quite helpful on this subject.

[Shelley]

Yes that it quite good, but the overlap is what is confusing me, the Venn diagram is helpful but has added more choices than I knew before

 

I will give that really good read and see if it helps but i still feel slightly confused.

 

I like the

会 means "know how to", 能 means "to be able to", 可以 means "to have permission to."

 

That helps a lot.

 

But the overlap is something I will have to work at. Are there any rules about the overlap or is it just experience and exposure that will help with this

[hedwards]

The way I'm reading this it's kind of like in English where the borders between can and may are a bit fuzzy. You can always use can to represent capability and may to represent permission, but sometimes people will use can to represent permission. That's how I'm reading that table and as far as I know you don't have to use the grey area uses, I'm sure after you come across people using the words in those ways that it will become more clear.

 

But, it's definitely wrong to say 不能 if you're saying there isn't permission and 不可以 if it's simply impossible to do.

[Shelley]

Thanks hedwards, knowing some definite wrong uses is helpful,  不能 translates as cannot, must not, should not, is this not the same as there is not permission, which is the same translation for 不可 but not for 不可以 which is only may not.

 

Hmm more confusion.

 

Interestingly my partner gets quite picky about that, if you say "Can you take the rubbish out please?" he says "yes i can but i don't know if i will." He says it half jokingly but it does bug him. he has though over the years mellowed about it as he realises it is fairly common usage and not just me

[hedwards]

Essentially I just stick to using 能 for possible, 会 for knowing how to do and 可以 for permission as those are definitely correct. At some point I may add some of those other possibilities to my repetoire, if I can find a reference for how to use them correctly. But, from what I understand of the matter, I don't see a pressing reason to focus on that when there's other things that are more likely to impede comprehension.

 

I stumbled onto another one yesterday during my 1 on 1 session, but I'd have to look it up and it would muddy things even further without adding anything appreciable, so I'll not burden you with that.

 

You get some folks answering "Can you whatever" in that fashion here, but can has been used for both possibility and permission going back several centuries at least. The implication being that if I can't do something that you're going to prevent in some fashion.

[Shelley]

Sounds like a good plan hedwards, stick to the simple for now and as i learn more in general the other uses may become clear. Thanks.

[Altair]

My strategy is to consider 会 only for mental processes.  That means it works for bring together your mental faculties because of innate or acquire knowledge or to describe a situation that exists in your mind as a prediction, promise, hypothesis, etc.

 

I consider 能 as focusing on the capability and capacity of the actor or agent (usually expressed by the grammatical topic or "subject" linked with 能).

 

Lastly, I consider 可以 as focusing on circumstances controlled by something else other than the topic or "subject."

 

There is some overlap between the three, sometimes permitting a choice between two of the three.  To keep them straight, I assume a different focus, as I have described.

 

 

But, it's definitely wrong to say 不能 if you're saying there isn't permission and 不可以 if it's simply impossible to do.

 

A similar issue arises in English.  Outside of earshot of picky listeners, you can freely use "can" to express either "being allowed to" or "being able to," but not both in the same sentence.  E.g., you can't easily say:

 

*I can go outside, but I can't (= "I am able to go outside, but I am not allowed to" or "I am allowed to go outside, but I am unable to")

 

or

 

*I can't go outside, but I can (= "I am not allowed to go outside, but I am able to" or "I am not able to go outside, but I am allowed to")

 

In both English and Chinese, you have to disambiguate these two uses when context permits both interpretations.

[Shelley]

Thanks for that Altair, that bit about mental processes helps a lot and the examples of the uses of can twice in a sentence clarifies things too.