Native or non-native teachers?

January 9, 2015 at 12:31 PM

Chinese people being picky about only talking to white people.....

.... Anyone who is a foreign face is automatically an English speaker in their eyes

I haven't found this to be the case in my experience teaching English here over the last 3 years. If you aren't white and aren't from a native speaking country it will be difficult (not impossible) for you to find legitimate employment in major cities. If you are employed and aren't a native speaker, the school often lies about your nationality. They may do this without your knowledge or ask you to go along with this. Depending on who the parents of your students are OR who your students are, they may not be able to tell what your accent is. I've known Danish people pretend to be American, Ukranian and Swedish pretend to be British ... and so on.

When a non-native speaker is employed illegally, they are often given lower pay than a native speaker. The student likely pays less as well if they know the teacher is a non-native speaker.

If you find employment and aren't white then you will likely face discrimination from your students or students parents if they are children. This won't be overt but they will likely find another excuse for them to change classes. This might be complaining you are a bad teacher or they may just say the time isn't suitable anymore due to a different class. If you are an American born Chinese or whatever, you will likely face more problems due to how you look.

January 9, 2015 at 01:37 PM

The student likely pays less as well if they know the teacher is a non-native speaker.

Makes sense though, I wouldn't pay for a non-ethnic mainland Chinese language teacher. I wouldn't really want a Taiwanese or HK born teacher either.

January 9, 2015 at 10:22 PM

@Johnny20270, I think there are both pros and cons to hiring somebody that isn't a native speaker of a language as a teacher. The ethnicity is a BS reason to make the decision, but whether native or non-native, there are things you can learn. True a non-native won't be able to answer some questions, but they also are more likely to understand mangled language than a native speaker would and they're much more conscious about adjustments that need to be made to fix pronunciation problems, assuming they've mastered it.

Personally, unless somebody is nearing the final stages and trying to get that C1 or C2 level, I don't see any reason not to use a high level non-native if that's what's available.

January 9, 2015 at 10:44 PM

My second and in my opinion the best teacher I had was British, born in shanghai and learnt Chinese almost as a mother tongue along side English. She left when she was about 12 due to the troubles. Yes she is quite old

It was excellent because her knowledge was huge and she could explain in English clearly and precisely. Also Chinese was her passion and that came through in her teaching.

Really wish she was still teaching

January 9, 2015 at 10:51 PM

True a non-native won't be able to answer some questions,

The opposite is true too, many natives have little awareness of grammar rules while a non native is more likely to know the grammar as he has studied them. Teaching skills and a level well above that of the student are the main ingredients for a good language teacher.

January 10, 2015 at 01:11 AM

"Makes sense though, I wouldn't pay for a non-ethnic mainland Chinese language teacher. I wouldn't really want a Taiwanese or HK born teacher either. "

What difference does it make? Many mainland people had to learn Putonghua at school while they grew up using an other Sinitic language at home. The 方言 are not just dialects. Many "ethnic mainland Chinese people" had to actually learn Putonghua as a second language.

If your goal is to learn standard Putonghua, you should have a teacher who can speak standard Putonghua. Their passport and the way they look can't influence their fluency in the language, not to mention teaching skills. Tell me one reason why a "non-ethnic mainland Chinese language teacher" can't speak fluent Putonghua. Because they don't have the right skin tone? Because their eyes don't have the right shape?

What happened with Sujeto?

January 10, 2015 at 02:43 AM

@Silent, sort of, the rules in grammar books are frequently wrong or outdated. There's never been anything wrong with splitting infinitives, dangling participles or using can for permission. But, books will frequently assert that they're incorrect anyways. And don't even get me started on Strunk and White. Or as my roommate calls it, Strunk and White's little book of lies.

Still, I do think that some formal study of grammar is appropriate and at the present non-natives are more likely to have actually studied grammar at some point.

January 10, 2015 at 10:51 AM

I never had native-speaker teachers for English, French or German, and for Chinese I started out with non-native speakers as well. The worst language teacher I've ever had was a man who'd learned Spanish simply by growing up there and had no earthly clue how to teach a language well (he was otherwise a great guy, but not at language teaching).

But I think we've already had this discussion, and it's completely off-topic here.

January 10, 2015 at 01:32 PM

The ethnicity is a BS reason to make the decision, but whether native or non-native, there are things you can learn

Their passport and the way they look can't influence their fluency in the language, not to mention teaching skills. Tell me one reason why a "non-ethnic mainland Chinese language teacher" can't speak fluent Putonghua. Because they don't have the right skin tone? Because their eyes don't have the right shape?

Sometime the comments made of this forum are an eyeopener! Everyone entitled to their own opinion of course but will people please live in the real world!

I solely made a comment that I wouldn't pay for a non-ethnic language teacher, not about the ability of a non native to do the job. ChTTay made a similar comment about Chinese students being taught English by a non-native.

Dear God, are we now suggesting that any reputable language schools would consider non natives as the teacher if native teachers were available? Good luck maintaining a teaching business with that philosophy! Yes! the eye shape, skin tone, passport are highly important when selling a the school! Perception is highly important. That's life.You don't need to be a native to be a tour guide nor have a PhD to teach in a reputable university but it matters a lot. Its the air of authority it creates.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a competent non native could do the job very well but please live in the real world. Non-natives add to the course and are a necessary component, as evident by say, this forum, Ken from Chinese Pod, John from sinosplice etc

I daresay 99% of prospective students would be somewhat p#ssed if the turn up to a language school in China and a German (say) was teaching the course, no matter how good he was. How many sales with a Chinese language book with a lead author of Bob Smith on the cover would sell?

I certainly wouldn't want a non native teacher and I hazard a guess that most posters on this forum would prefer a native as the language teacher no matter how open minded or liberal they try appear to be.

The worst language teacher I've ever had was a man who'd learned Spanish simply by growing up there and had no earthly clue how to teach a language well

He had no training so wasn't a language teacher, the comment is irrelevant

January 10, 2015 at 02:08 PM

You missed half my comment. I learned all my languages from non-natives (including Chinese, where I only got native speaking teachers later on). (Actually not all of them. I learned Taiwanese from a native speaker. She also taught Mandarin though.)

It's extremely common for non-natives to teach a language. Nevermind running a business, try running an entire education system with the philosophy that non-native speakers are perfectly competent at teaching a language. In my country, virtually all language teachers at secondary schools are Dutch, not native speakers of English/French/German/Spanish/whatever. I've never heard of anyone thinking that is a problem, and indeed the Dutch are known for speaking their languages well.

I studied French in France for a few weeks once. One of my teachers was Belgian and spoke native Dutch. I forgot if he also spoke native French, but regardless he was one of the best teachers there (and the others were also extremely good). If I went to China to learn Chinese, I would be rather surprised to find a non-Chinese teaching. But I would expect that person to be up to snuff, otherwise the school wouldn't have hired them.

In China, and probably in some other places as well, schools/parents place a lot of value on whether someone looks the part of speaking a language. But that is not a universal truth: one can be a perfectly good language teacher even if one is not a native speaker, and one can even make a perfectly good living of that.

January 10, 2015 at 02:40 PM

I certainly wouldn't want a non native teacher and I hazard a guess that most posters on this forum would prefer a native as the language teacher no matter how open minded or liberal they try appear to be.

Competence is more important then nationality or ethnicity. Sure, a native is considered to speak the language well, even by me, but may very well have a strong accent and/or use the language in a sloppy way making the person less then ideal as a teacher. Obviously you're free to pay or not pay as a teacher whoever you want, but it's smarter to pay based on competence to do the job at hand then their nativity or ethnicity.

He had no training so wasn't a language teacher, the comment is irrelevant

You base this on what? Also trained people can be highly incompetent.

January 10, 2015 at 03:04 PM

A teacher trainer I knew was non-native speaker. They know more about how the English language works than anyone I've ever met.

When I made the comments about non-natives above, I was referring specifically to China. My point was also that Chinese people don't just see a foreign face and assume native speaker as was previously suggested.

I would say that, in China, it completely matters on where the teacher is from and what they look like. The person I mentioned above had to pretend they were a native speaker.

It may not matter so much learning a European language in Europe but it is a massive issue in China for Chinese learning English. Yes, non natives do teach but usually there is usually lying involve or a discount.

January 10, 2015 at 04:05 PM

Somewhere around post #110 or so this topic changed, maybe it needs splitting off into a Native or non-native Teachers Pros and Cons topic.

January 12, 2015 at 03:24 AM

I solely made a comment that I wouldn't pay for a non-ethnic language teacher, not about the ability of a non native to do the job. ChTTay made a similar comment about Chinese students being taught English by a non-native.

Dear God, are we now suggesting that any reputable language schools would consider non natives as the teacher if native teachers were available? Good luck maintaining a teaching business with that philosophy! Yes! the eye shape, skin tone, passport are highly important when selling a the school! Perception is highly important. That's life.You don't need to be a native to be a tour guide nor have a PhD to teach in a reputable university but it matters a lot. Its the air of authority it creates.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a competent non native could do the job very well but please live in the real world. Non-natives add to the course and are a necessary component, as evident by say, this forum, Ken from Chinese Pod, John from sinosplice etc

I am sorry, but your argument is not sound. When I think about it, you don't even have an argument.

You said that you would never pay for a non ethnic Chinese teacher. I am not telling you to hire me, it is your decision. What I want to know here is why. Can you try to convince me how your decision to not hire me to teach you Chinese makes any sort of sense?

Don't talk about the real world (in other words, yes, a lot of BS is happening in the world, but you can't use this as an excuse to join the party. The only outcome will be that more and more BS will be happening in the future). Don't talk about business. Maybe an ethnic teacher (using your terminology) is easier to sell, but this has nothing to do with your decision to not pay for a non ethnic language teacher.

I certainly wouldn't want a non native teacher and I hazard a guess that most posters on this forum would prefer a native as the language teacher no matter how open minded or liberal they try appear to be.

What I prefer is a person who:

1. Can speak the language fluently;

2. Is able to teach me the language.

I want a teacher who has mastered such nuisances as prosody, tone sandhi when it comes to Mandarin and sentence stress when it comes to English. Whatever their nationality, passport, hair color, eye shape. Call me liberal if you want.

A have a friend from undergrad who went on to get his Master's in TESOL from a university in the UK (Leeds). He had to face a lot of discrimination when looking for a job after graduation. Apparently, many ads had the discriminatory 'natives only' requirement. However, he did not give up and is now teaching English at a university in the Gulf. He is an amazing teacher and if I were to learn English I would hire him over anyone else.

January 12, 2015 at 05:56 AM

Can you try to convince me how your decision to not hire me to teach you Chinese makes any sort of sense?

The you have an issue with probably 99% of the potential students. Can it be they are all wrong and you are right? I agree with you that the ability of a language teacher is based of knowledge and ability to train, but for me I want the ethnicity also for the simple reason that I find the accent and mannerism important.

A have a friend from undergrad who went on to get his Master's in TESOL from a university in the UK (Leeds). He had to face a lot of discrimination when looking for a job after graduation. Apparently, many ads had the discriminatory 'natives only' requirement.

Can a non native excel over a native? Sure, they probably can but whey take the chance? The balance of probabilities is the a native is less likely to make mistakes in pronunciation and more importantly the way the speak. Culture is ingrained language and they way people form sentences. An american and British person can speak native English but manner of speak will different slightly especially when it comes to colloquial speak. Further more the accent is important to me and many others. That can't be changed drastically, only mimicked.

I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the vast majority of students would agree with me on this.

Don't talk about business. Maybe an ethnic teacher (using your terminology) is easier to sell, but this has nothing to do with your decision to not pay for a non ethnic language teacher.

The business reason is completely relevant, a business is there to make money and understand what attracts potential students. If most people were to agree with you then a language school would be indifferent to the ethnicity of the tutor / staff. They certainly are not.

January 12, 2015 at 06:14 AM

In China, and probably in some other places as well, schools/parents place a lot of value on whether someone looks the part of speaking a language. But that is not a universal truth: one can be a perfectly good language teacher even if one is not a native speaker.

This happens in many other aspects of life. For example, all top universities now in the UK highly desire people with a PhD. Its almost useless for a teaching position as by nature its far too narrow of a field, but nevertheless its just the reality of life. Same with professional employment. Many companies state MA/Msc or above. Is it wrong, debatable?

This type of discrimination is not illegal, hiring a language teacher based on ethnicity certainly is (in EU anyway)

January 12, 2015 at 06:39 AM

I'm not sure why you're conflating native language with ethnicity. Plenty of ethnically Han Chinese people don't speak a lick of Mandarin yet have native English (or German, or Dutch, or Portuguese...), or perhaps speak excellent Cantonese but very poor Mandarin. Equally, some people who are not ethnically Han Chinese are native Mandarin speakers.

It's debatable as to whether native language is one of the most important factors when choosing a language teacher; in my opinion it's not, though it's undeniably one factor that makes a non-negligable difference. All else being equal, I'd choose a native speaker over a non-native speaker as a teacher; but in reality, all else isn't equal - there are always other considerations.

What is not debatable is whether ethnicity itself should be a factor in choosing teachers. It shouldn't, and anyone that claims otherwise is a bigot.

January 12, 2015 at 06:57 AM

What is not debatable is whether ethnicity itself should be a factor in choosing teachers. It shouldn't, and anyone that claims otherwise is a bigot.

Yes you're correct, I fully agree with you on that. I am using the term ethnicity too loosely, probably should say "native", if that clears it up.

..... Mind you I never know what word to use nowadays without someone getting their knickers in a knot screaming racism

January 12, 2015 at 11:35 AM

As chance would have it, the other day I met an Englishman who used to teach at Dutch secondary schools. He confirmed to me that there are at most some 40 native-speaking English teachers in Dutch secondary schools. I have never heard of any attempts to increase that number, which would suggest that nobody here thinks this is a problem.

Johnny, it's clear that you think native speakers are better teachers, but why do you think 99% of all learners agree with this? On this thread you seem to be the only one who feels this way.

January 12, 2015 at 11:58 AM

He confirmed to me that there are at most some 40 native-speaking English teachers in Dutch secondary schools.

Well I think it depends on who is teaching and what language. The Dutch particularly have excellent English no question. In primary / secondary school days all my language teachers were Irish and certainly weren't incompetent. But I still believe native teachers, on average make better teachers (note the on average). This is just my opinion I do note others strongly disagree. The native v non native argument is stronger or weaker dependent on how distant the language is from the native's original language and culture.

Johnny, it's clear that you think native speakers are better teachers, but why do you think 99% of all learners agree with this? On this thread you seem to be the only one who feels this way.

As for the 99%? Yes its a guess on my part, but are we really saying that on this Chinese forum, that for most members here it wouldn't bother them in the slightest if they arrived in China for a language course (or elsewhere for that matter) and were confronted by a non-native as their Chinese teacher? Sorry I just don't buy that

Or to put it another way We mentioned French. Would you all like a native Chinese person teaching you French if native French teachers were available?

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