Native or non-native teachers?

[Lu]

The Dutch particularly have excellent English no question.

And who do you think they learned that from?

As Shelley mentions, all else being equal most people (me included) would pick a native speaking teacher over a non-native. But all else is never equal. Would you pick a native Chinese just out of teaching school over a foreigner with years of experience, for example? Or someone who can explain the finer points in your own language over someone who knows all the ins and outs of Chinese but speaks barely three words of anything else? If I came to French class and the teacher was Dutch, or Chinese, or South African, I would probably lift an eyebrow and then just wait and see how good a teacher s/he was. If the teacher was French and bad I would walk out just as fast as if s/he was Chinese and bad.

Of course, a teacher needs to know the thing they are teaching like the back of their hand, and the higher a level the student is, the harder it would be to find a non-native speaker knowing the language even better. Although that still doesn't mean that a non-native wouldn't be a good teacher. I'd pick Dashan or Julien Gaudfroy over most native-speaking Chinese teachers.

Fun fact: I actually know a Chinese woman who studied Dutch, then came to the Netherlands to study more Dutch, then trained to be a Dutch teacher (a teacher of Dutch). The twist is that she didn't study to become a Dutch-as-a-foreign-language teacher, but Dutch-to-the-Dutch. She recently found a job as a Dutch teacher at a Dutch secondary school. Now at that level of language-learning I agree that I would have my doubts about a non-native teacher. But clearly the school is convinced, and they know more about what makes a good teacher than I do.

[Angelina]

In primary / secondary school days all my language teachers were Irish and certainly weren't incompetent. But I still believe native teachers, on average make better teachers (note the on average). This is just my opinion I do note others strongly disagree. The native v non native argument is stronger or weaker dependent on how distant the language is from the native's original language  and culture. 

 

What if it is also depends on how much are these language teachers willing to imitate native speakers? Maybe Irish teachers of English are competent, but have kept a strong Irish 'accent'. I am not sure how many Irish people are trying to achieve the perfect Received Pronunciation/BBC English/Queen's English, probably not many. On the other hand, I have met many Macedonian people who speak English like the Queen of England and they only had non native English teachers. 

[Angelina]

Fun fact: I actually know a Chinese woman who studied Dutch, then came to the Netherlands to study more Dutch, then trained to be a Dutch teacher (a teacher of Dutch). The twist is that she didn't study to become a Dutch-as-a-foreign-language teacher, but Dutch-to-the-Dutch. She recently found a job as a Dutch teacher at a Dutch secondary school. Now at that level of language-learning I agree that I would have my doubts about a non-native teacher. But clearly the school is convinced, and they know more about what makes a good teacher than I do.

 

Interesting. I won't be surprised if she ends up being a great teacher. With that level of drive and love for the Dutch language ...

[hedwards]

I really do think that people need to consider where they are and what they need when they're looking for a teacher.

 

Because of my accent and my ear, I'm quite good at teaching pronunciation, and so I'd be somebody you'd want to have to learn how to speak proper American English, but I can't spell, so I'm a really bad person to go to for that. I can look words up, but for words I don't use much, I don't remember the spelling.

 

I'm also quite patient, generally, and calming so I do well with anxious students as well. But, students that aren't anxious and are a bit more easily bored are likely to do better with somebody else as going the more entertaining route results in a definite decline in quality of what I'm providing.

 

Fortunately, spelling shouldn't be an issue as that's what dictionaries are for. Teachers shouldn't need to teach spelling as that's something that students should be doing on their own. However, teachers should be helping with penmanship as the line between an "a" and an "e" isn't always obvious to non-natives, but to people who can read it takes a huge amount of work to guess which one it's supposed to be.

[victorhart]

Wading into the debate here, I would say, rather simplistically:

 

- One of the only factors that researchers have been able to isolate that makes for a successful teacher is mastery of the content being taught. In language instruction, a native speaker, by definition, has significant advantages over a non-native in terms of mastery of content.

 

- There are other components to mastery of a language besides being a native speaker. Level of education, for instance, is relevant.

 

- There are other components to being a successful teacher besides mastery of content. Many of these factors are difficult to measure, but they are nonetheless extremely important. For instance, patience, attentiveness, ability to effectively communicate knowledge, etc.

 

In other words, all other things being equal, in my opinion, a native speaker is a better choice for a language teacher than a non-native. That goes for any level. On the other hand, many non-native speakers are much better teachers than many native-speaking teachers, due to the numerous other factors that constitute a good teacher.

 

Other important points:

 

- Being a native speaker does not necessarily have anything to do with nationality, and certainly not with ethnicity. 

 

- Beginners and lower level students cannot adequately assess their teachers' mastery of the language being taught. Therefore, hiring a non-native speaker as a teacher involves added risk, unless you are very careful about your choice.

 

- Native speakers generally have the cultural baggage that to me is so fundamental to making the language come alive. Culture and language are, in my mind, fairly inseparable. That is a reason I, personally, would probably never hire a non-native teacher. 

[LiMo]

I can see where Johnny is coming from but victorhart makes (excuse me for being blunt) a much better argument, probably because of the clear and dispassionate logic (must find more of that myself). I want to disagree but I can't really.

 

Part of this problem may be down to experience. We expect pretty much anyone to be able to teach a European language because so many different kinds of peoples speak them natively (now there's a tricky use of the word native but lets leave the history aside for the moment) but we have much less exposure to people of other races teaching things like Chinese. Because of this we may be much more likely to associate these languages with someone who looks Chinese. I assume the many people who agree with Johnny would object much less if the teacher was Japanese. S/He still looks the part and humans are quite shallow after all. 

 

I think many people find this a bitter pill to swallow because it is so often shown in shallow discrimination and ignorance. It is a well documented fact that it can be hard to get a job teaching English in China if you aren't white, regardless of being a native speaker or not. I considered going myself but have hesitated for this very reason. I don't even have to have been in the situation to feel real anger, indignation and yes, hurt, that someone would decide what I can and can't do based on race/skin colour or whatever. Yes the schools do it for business reasons, even if they themselves know you can teach better than anyone else on their staff, if they know the parents won't like you then they have to make tough decisions. But this isn't an excuse. Nothing ever changes if we just sit back and say, "Oh, well everyone's doing it and it's a fact of life so there." Hopefully as China opens up people will realise that skin colour and race are basically meaningless, until you interact with a person there's very little you can tell from this alone, hell style of dress is likely to tell you much much more!

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't be a bit disappointed if I turned up in China and none of my teachers were Chinese (I actually hate to admit this but I did some thinking and realised it's true) but assuming the teachers were all good, I think my Chinese is good enough to tell, I hope that I could live up to my own high standards and be happy that these people (where ever they be from) dedicate themselves to helping me. 

 

Random thought:

 

A lot of people are split on whether non-natives or natives are better teachers on average. I haven't enough experience (who does?) to make any claims, but I suspect it is easier to bluff your way through as a native speaker whilst being not only a poor teacher but even being poor at the language. It may well be that, especially for languages like Chinese, which are heavily associated with a particular race, that non-native teachers would be better on average because of the sheer tenacity and dedication needed to be taken seriously at all.

[Angelina]

There was a statistician that drowned crossing a river… It was 3 feet deep on average. 

[Silent]

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't be a bit disappointed if I turned up in China and none of my teachers were Chinese (I actually hate to admit this but I did some thinking and realised it's true) but assuming the teachers were all good,

For me I don't think disappointed is the right word. I would be surprised yes, but disappointed, no not really I would expect the school to hire competent teachers. I might however be more alert and critical due to the surprise, specially if it wasn't a really  free and wholehearted choice. E.g. because an employer pushed the school/teacher or I felt not too happy about the school but had no feasible alternative.

 

I already once expressed my surprise about the CCTV choice of teachers. In all the courses on the CCTV site there's a non-native teacher (often DaShan) while at home in TV courses they tend to use a native teachers. (Haven't seen a language course in Dutch TV for a long time so things may have changed.) So yes, I'm influenced too by the appearance of the teacher, but as said I don't think it's rational. As long as the teacher knows the language well and well beyond the level of the student other factors are more important.

 

When personally selecting a teacher the bias is probably even stronger. As a beginning student it's hard to assess the language level of the teacher. Being a native speaker is then easily used as a certification of language level. In reality nativity is no guarantee, many natives have sloppy language and strong non-standard accents too. Just the same as that an official certification is no guarantee as people may have committed fraud or neglected their skills after certification.

[Johnny20270]

I assume the many people who agree with Johnny would object much less if the teacher was Japanese. S/He still looks the part and humans are quite shallow after all. 

 

 

 

Well, for me I'd say its because the language and culture is not as distance as say European languages. But faced with the choice of say (a) a Chinese language teacher who I know nothing about and (b)a well know non native Chinese teacher I'd definitely pick the latter, no question. 

 

 

... But this isn't an excuse. Nothing ever changes if we just sit back and say, "Oh, well everyone's doing it and it's a fact of life so there." Hopefully as China opens up people will realise that skin colour and race are basically meaningless, 

 

 

 

Off topic I know, buy try working in a investment bank. The only blacks, with a few exceptions, you will see on a trading floor are emptying bins. The hypocrisy irritates me immensely given all they public campaigns look like a United Nations advert. 

 

I think an aspect of these discussion is that people who seem to make a career out of being offended on behalf of others, seem to come out of the woodwork (not referring to people on this forum). There is always this murky line between racism and 'racial/cultural preference'. I use this term (for want of a better one) not in terms of discrimination but more for individual preference of one culture/race over another. There is nothing wrong in my mind with that but its a can of worms and really depends on specific examples. 

 

 

 

[Angelina]

You didn't say what you think about RP in Ireland. I would guess that Irish people would not want to imitate native speakers (politics) and thus, unlike Macedonian English teachers, Irish English teachers don't usually have near native pronunciation.

Maybe that is why you think native teachers are better, while I don't believe in dividing teachers into natives and non-natives.

[Johnny20270]

Hi Angelina,. 

 

well .... the topic just went that way (native v non-native) but in this specific case, it is not really relevant because Irish are native English speakers anyway. My other point was that the argument I believe  becomes more debatable depending on how distant the teachers native language / culture is from that being taught. i.e. a belgian/swiss teaching French not really an issue but a Nigerian teaching Chinese, would be for me (if the accent if anything)

 

I was thinking about this in today's class and I am more entrenched in the idea of a the benefits of a native speaker as some translations/use of language made little sense to me/seemed odd to use. The teacher went on to explain about the culture and modesty of Chinese. If did make sense.

 

Actually does anyone know, what do Chinese prefer? American / Australian / British English or are most indifferent? 

[Angelina]

Ok. I personally like the sound of Irish English and was interested to know how people over there feel about English as spoken in Southern England. 

 

American English is popular in China. British English is usually popular within formal education. People usually prefer the local variety if they are learning the language for emigration/study abroad purposes, otherwise American English is the standard. I also (try to) speak General American English. Not sure about Lu. 

[Demonic_Duck]

There is always this murky line between racism and 'racial/cultural preference'. I use this term (for want of a better one) not in terms of discrimination but more for individual preference of one culture/race over another. There is nothing wrong in my mind with that but its a can of worms and really depends on specific examples.

 

Once again, you're conflating completely separate things. Race does not equal culture, and putting a forward slash between them as if they mean essentially the same thing just muddies the waters. I don't think there's any controversy in saying "it's OK to have a personal preference for one culture over another". You're only inviting controversy when you introduce race.

 

For what it's worth, I think that prefering one race over another isn't OK, but it is almost ubiquitous. Almost everyone naturally has a subconscious preference for their own race (many studies have been done on this subject). Having such a subconscious preference doesn't make you a bad person, although I do think that people should be aware of it and do their best to counteract it.

 

You can also further differentiate between preferences and expectations; preferences say "I like" or "I dislike", whilst expectations say "I expect this to be the case". Expectations regarding race are based on stereotypes, and the problem with stereotypes is that they are so often inaccurate. This inaccuracy stems from a number of causes. First and foremost, many of the stereotypes you hold will be filtered through the distorting lens of the media. Secondly, those stereotypes that come from personal experience are limited by the fact that your personal experience is highly restricted compared to the totality of human experience. And thirdly, any such expectations are based on induction - the premise that things in the future will resemble things in the past, which isn't always the case. In all, these inaccuracies mean that stereotypes are often worse than useless.

 

I think an aspect of these discussion is that people who seem to make a career out of being offended on behalf of others, seem to come out of the woodwork (not referring to people on this forum).

 

Be more accurate with your language, and you'll probably find that people stop being offended.

[Angelina]

BTW I grew up in a small town where there was a Nigerian man who could speak fluent Macedonian and his sons are Macedonian of Nigerian ancestry. So, if I know that there is a Nigerian person who can speak Macedonian, I don't think I would question the ability of a Nigerian person to speak Mandarin and having such a person as a teacher would never be an issue for me. 

[Silent]

 

Expectations regarding race are based on stereotypes

Expectations have nothing to do with stereotypes and everything with experience. If your experience is largely biased media exposure then expectations are likely to be based on stereotypes.

 

 

In all, these inaccuracies mean that stereotypes are often worse than useless.

Many stereotypes have some truth in them. They often become stereotypes because for some reason there's excessive focus on a certain feature and it's easier to generalize then to point out all the nuances. E.g. Group X is comparatively criminal js a much clearer message then In Group X the occurance of criminal behaviour is 0.2 percent higher then in the general population. This underlying truth makes that stereotypes are not by definition useless which is what makes them so dangerous.

[Johnny20270]

@Angelina: I pick a Nigerian as it was the first one that came to mind. My point is that faced with both choices, and little other info I would go with the native as its simply a balance of probabilities . More information could possible change my mind. Others here don't agree with me. Fair enough. 

 

Ok. I personally like the sound of Irish English and was interested to know how people over there feel about English as spoken in Southern England.

 

 

 

When I grew up, England still had signs in shops saying "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish". There used to be a bit of a hatred from both sides but more or less dissipated now. I think most Irish understand that the English language originates from England so no (valid) reason to dislike it. Note: the 'valid' part

 

 

For what it's worth, I think that prefering one race over another isn't OK, 

 

 

 

Oh come on DD, you don't have to fly the PC flag all the time. OK do I have a preference of for example Sudanese females over for example the Dutch females say. Not at all, I much prefer lighter skin, lighter hair color. I also think on average Korean woman are better looking that Chinese woman. These are preferences purely based on race. This is perfectly fine in my view. If I said: I am not giving you a job because you are Sudanese is totally unacceptable. Can people please get over this finding racism in a cup of black coffee. 

 

 

Be more accurate with your language, and you'll probably find that people stop being offended.

 

 

Of all the forums I have been on since the days the internet was called the information super highway, this one particularly stand out as the most PC, left wing, easily outraged one. Apart from me I don't recall anyone saying anything that is remotely non-PC*.   I have much more respect for people who come out and say exactly what they mean rather than take the popular view all the time or worry someone somewhere might possibly be offended

 

(*well apart from Sutejo) 

[Demonic_Duck]

Silent:

1) Yes, expectations you have towards a certain race are often based on stereotypes which are based on experience. I already mentioned that, and explained why it's flawed.

2) I qualified my statement with "often". They are often worse than useless. Sure, they're sometimes better than useless, too. The problem is that people rely on them too much.

 

Johnny:

1) Oh, so you're talking about sex. I assumed you were talking about interactions with people, friendships etc. As you were, then.

2) I fucking hate this kind of attitude. "Your views are different from mine, therefore they aren't genuine." It's like when people claim that atheists actually do believe in God, but they don't admit it because they don't want to.

[Johnny20270]

I won't post any more after this as we are probably misunderstanding each other and topic is kindof degenerating

 

1) Oh, so you're talking about sex. I assumed you were talking about interactions with people, friendships etc. As you were, then.

 

 

Just using this as an example to demonstrate the we can have preference dependent purely on race. There are other examples I'm sure to some degree but but its probably more along the lines of culture than race as you noted

 

2) I fucking hate this kind of attitude. "Your views are different from mine, therefore they aren't genuine." It's like when people claim that atheists actually do believe in God, but they don't admit it because they don't want to.

 

 

Not at all! you are certainly entitled to your views I just see it from a different perspective and have seen many people particularly in the UK taking the PC route because it has become popular view. I'll give you an example. Google the plebgate affair. It was the height of PC madness., Basically a very senior politician has to resign because may or may not have said a nasty word to someone once. It dominated the news for months, the prime-minster got involved and the a police operation called "Operation Alice" was launched. Was completely pathetic.

 

Right signing off. I really need to study

[Angelina]

Of all the forums I have been on since the days the internet was called the information super highway, this one particularly stand out as the most PC, left wing, easily outraged one. Apart from me I don't recall anyone saying anything that is remotely non-PC*.    I have much more respect for people who come out and say exactly what they mean rather than take the popular view all the time or worry someone somewhere might possibly be offended

 

The reason why I reacted to your rejection of all non-native teachers was because I felt it was irrational. There is a difference between a) owning an English language school in China and preferring to hire native speakers because, although a silly preference, this is how people in China think and it will be difficult to change that overnight; b) looking for a teacher of any language and not even considering people who don't own a passport from a country where said language is spoken. People can get a new passport because of tax evasion, it is not exactly smart to stick to the 'natives only' rule.

 

I don't believe in political correctness. Personal preferences are different from things like fighting for the right of everyone to be treated with respect.

[Lu]

Of all the forums I have been on since the days the internet was called the information super highway, this one particularly stand out as the most PC, left wing, easily outraged one. Apart from me I don't recall anyone saying anything that is remotely non-PC*. I have much more respect for people who come out and say exactly what they mean rather than take the popular view all the time or worry someone somewhere might possibly be offended.

When does anyone get outraged here? People disagree, but they usually always use arguments and reasoning, they don't yell at each other. Nobody has gotten banned in years (that I know of). Hardly any threads get closed. People disagreeing with you is not the same as outrage.

And why on earth do you think that people here don't mean exactly what they say when they say they don't like to discriminate, that god isn't necessarily an old white man etc? Has it occured to you that you're the only one saying non-PC things because the other people here don't hold the same thoughts that you do? (Besides, isn't being politically correct not usually a synonym for being polite? Since when is it wrong to not want to say things that might offend people who look or are different from you?)

In my experience, once your world gets bigger (because you go to China, for example) you automatically take different people into account more. Talk about scandals: a while ago a Dutch tv personality said some seriously racist things about Chinese people. I was shocked when I saw it. You insult my friends and aquaintances, I get angry. I know a lot of Chinese people and got angry at their behalf. Many other Dutch people, however, saw no problem at all, or only when it was spelled out to them. Most people here have been abroad and know people of different races. Could be that that is what has made them so PC.