汉服

[Quest]

http://bbs.hnol.net/flash/zhuanti/hanfu/hanzhu.htm

Quote from the above forum: "日本是亚洲最西化的民族，他们的现代化程度也很高，但他们的传统服饰和服一样很有生命力，别人一说到日本就想到他们的华美精致的服饰，这是把他们与别的民族区别开来的标志，还有韩国等不都是这样吗？保护民族文化就从保护民族服装开始。现在西人一谈到汉人就想到民国时期的那种简易粗糙的长袍，这难道说不是我们的悲哀吗"

你们对汉服饰复兴有什么看法？或许在婚礼上穿汉服比穿满人的旗袍要好看。

[Guest Anonymous]

I believe in this "global" society we live in today, it isn't difficult to lose your own identity.

A 漢服飾 (Han clothing) renaissance would bring a sense of identity to the Chinese people. I know when I was young, the only "traditional" Chinese clothing I know of was 旗袍 (qipao) for women and 長衣 (Changyi?) for men. Although I personally like 旗袍's simple and elegant look, it doesn't seem as "Chinese" to me as the clothing I saw actors and actresses wear in TV series and movies that take place in ancient China. I'm not saying that we should all stop wearing suits, t-shirt, jeans, and other "Western clothing" completely. But it would be nice to wear “漢服”on Chinese new year or other Chinese holidays. Also, just the outfits displayed on the website above makes 旗袍 and 長衣 appear quite boring.

[Quest]

Quote: "重庆妹子王珊穿的，就是我们汉族传统的汉服。

绵延了4000多年的汉服被毁，汉家男子脑后拖一尾巴，穿了通古斯兽皮，表面上看，也许只是难看些，

实际上，汉民族的傲骨也快被打碎完了......

全国56个民族，就我们没有我们的民族服装。"

[Quest]

http://www.haanen.com/bbs/uploadfile/2003101710584343212.jpg

I really hope Han people can revive their costume at least for festive occasions.

Removed the image and made it a link - large picture was stretching page. Roddy

[holyman]

looks dumb and clumsy.

the design was modernised and it didnt really say it got the idea from 'han dynasty costume' or 'ethnic han chinese costume'. there is a great deal of difference here.

it says the han costume lasted 4000 yrs, which is probably wrong. the history of 'ethnic han' is less than 2000yrs. there is no 'han people' before qin shihuang conquered all of china. in all, just some silly sino-centric chauvinistic act, or a form of marketing strategy. anyway ancient chinese got their trousers when 赵武灵王 of the state of zhao introduced that from nomadic tribes who roamed northern china, during the 'warring states' period. he did that so that the chinese can have calvary troops. the chinese costume had evolved and adopted from other races thruout history. what the women is wearing is from tang dynasty cos that the only time when women were allowed to have low cutting in front, and thats from minority races as well.

[Tsunku]

I think it looks kinda cool.

I was reading an aritcle the other day, and it mentioned how minorities always wear "costumes" whereas the stuff the Han wear are simply called "clothes." Costumes, of course, being cool and exotic, whereas clothes are just dull and boring. This post reminded me of that article. It seems that these Han "costumes" can let the Han experience their own "exotic" side.

[holyman]

actually the person in the first pic should change his trousers and leather shoes to be slightly more 'authentic'... still i find it looks kinda wierd...

[Quest]

All look good to me, he's not trying to be authentic, he's just trying to let people know that we once had our own costume, and our ancestors did not abandon their costume willingly, the pigtail the Qing costumes were forced upon our ancestors by the threat of death. Not that I hate anyone or anything, but out of a natural feeling that I would like to see this lost cultural asset to be at least learned about by the Han people today, and it's also a respect to our ancestors who lost their lives refusing to change their dressing code. Of course the bulkiness would not make much sense in the modern world, he's just getting the word out, not suggesting people should wear it everyday.

Yes the Han costume has changed over the years, but the 大袖，无扣, some of the fundamental characteristics that define the Han costume has not changed much over the course of history until the last dynasty when the Manchu government forced everyone to wear a pigtail and dress in manchurian clothing. There's no hatred here either since it was long time ago, but I think people have a right to learn about this, then whether they accept it or not, it would be up to them.

[holyman]

our ancestors?

thats just a 'by default' kind of general expression. i wonder how many chinese knew exactly who their ancestors are, say, for 5 generations and above. not trying to be sacarstic but who knows u might actually be a descendant of the machus? unless u keep a good record of ur family tree its had to tell who is han and who is non-han nowadays. even i have my family record up to northern song dynasty i still wouldnt dare to say that there is absolutely no dna from other races in my family blood.

it is always good to show ppl nowadays how ancient ppl dress for different occasions but please keep the ethnic things aside.

[Quest]

it is always good to show ppl nowadays how ancient ppl dress for different occasions but please keep the ethnic things aside.

yea the ethnic thing doesn't bother me much. I know this is a sensitive review of history, much like the race issues in america. But, it really does not matter what ethnic group I belong to, because as you said I am probably a mix of different groups too, though I am pretty sure I have Han blood in me and for as far back as I know my ancestors defined themselves as Han too. For me that's where I take my lineage, my loyalty. but anyways, that's not the point, the point is to get the word out, so people would know there's an alternative traditional dressing style out there for them when the occasion occurs that they wear their traditional clothing, and not just be limited to 长衫 and 旗袍。

[Guest greenpine]

i came up with the following from a quick glimsp of your arguments.

your statement that claimed han costume is no older than 4000 years is kind of misleading, your point of arguement is that the ethnic itself is less than 2000 years old (although your timing is not all correct, but it does not bother my argument). prior to the han dynasty which chinese was later referred to as HAN, by your point of view, do we not call the text written 漢字 because the han ethnic was not yet formed? and here forming does not mean another ethnic merged, it is more of an alias change from 華夏 to 漢, because it was the han dynasty that rised up as an unprecedented power.

han costume is a system of aesthetism that influenced much of asia, specially the east, it can be said that it is a style more than it is attached strictly to this ethnic, thus, it is very misleading that you used that arguement, you mixed 2 superficially similar but fundamentally different ideas together.

the other argument that you presented was the 趙武靈王 case, this is once again a very uneducated point of view, first, the king changed their costume only for military purposes which is to make the army more efficient, making clothing less loosy. secondly, i believe that changes are only made to the loosy aspect, but not the others, this means, the typcial cross collar "y" (交領) and covers to the right (右衽) of 漢服 was still maintained and was not necessary to change for the sake of boosting army's strength. Thus by using this case to argue that 漢服 was volatile and change of its fundament elements is not a big issue is not valid.

han costume probably has more meaning in the society than any other costume in their societies that is because it has more symbolism attached to it.

[ufe3]

looks dumb and clumsy.

the design was modernised and it didnt really say it got the idea from 'han dynasty costume' or 'ethnic han chinese costume'. there is a great deal of difference here.

it says the han costume lasted 4000 yrs' date=' which is probably wrong. the history of 'ethnic han' is less than 2000yrs. there is no 'han people' before qin shihuang conquered all of china. in all, just some silly sino-centric chauvinistic act, or a form of marketing strategy. anyway ancient chinese got their trousers when 赵武灵王 of the state of zhao introduced that from nomadic tribes who roamed northern china, during the 'warring states' period. he did that so that the chinese can have calvary troops. the chinese costume had evolved and adopted from other races thruout history. what the women is wearing is from tang dynasty cos that the only time when women were allowed to have low cutting in front, and thats from minority races as well.[/quote']

赵武灵王 of the state of zhao ONLY made it in the Arm!!!

Your impress of Tang is from media! See Japan and Korea Clothes --the leading style of Tang should be that?

the MOST Know diffrence between YiGuan(衣冠) and Fushi(服饰) !!!!

[Ian_Lee]

I really doubt if Korean and Japanese clothes were really duplicates of Tang clothes even though both countries were under Tang's heavy influence.

For Korea, their traditional clothes are in White color which is deemed "unlucky" color in China. Only the ancient Shang Dynasty favored White color and it is likely that Koreans have Shang retainers as their real ancestors.

For Japan, the Kimono wrapped the female body with layers and layers of clothes. But according to pictures drawn during Tang's time, the ladies all wore half-bare breast clothes. Yang Kuei Fei was known for her gorgeous (and fatty) body. And I guess the Tang Emperor was not that patient to untie layers and layers of clothes.

The lady's wear during Tang period resembled more of those of Queen Elizabeth I's era of England.

[Guest KublaGirl]

For years I thought it would be cool to dress up as a Geisha for Halloween because kimonos are so beautiful and it'd suit me a lot better than a Xena the Warrior Princess costume. Now I think of, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense though since I'm Chinese.

The problem comes up when I try to find ANY traditional Han costume for sale, not Cheongsam mind you. Personally, I don't think Cheongsam's are nearly as romantic as willowy Han dresses. Not to mention it's not representative of most Chinese's ethnic background being non-Manchu.

So I'm thinking about designing and making my own Han costume, probably in form of Da Xiu from the Song dynasty. See a picture at the bottom of this page http://www.library.utoronto.ca/east/students03/tai_amy/song.htm My reasons are: 1, I can learn a lot more than I ever wanted about sewing and making clothes, 2, it'll bring Chinese culture pride.

I have no clue how far I can get with this ambitious undertaking though. My Mom doesn't even own any Cheongsam's. This summer I plan to travel to China so maybe I can find a film studio that sells costumes used in movies and TV shows.

Do you think it's a practical idea? Have you heard of anyone doing this before?

[Quest]

Go for it

[Ian_Lee]

Cheongsam may not be romantic but it fits perfectly for the body of Eastern Asian girls.

(Do you ever see a Caucasan girl looks great when she is dressed in Cheongsam?)

But Cheongsam is undeniably hard to wear.

The girl must not have any fat in the tummy and the high fixed collar makes the neck stiff.

However, Cheongsam can be very sexy if the girl who wears it has fair skin color and long feet.

The cleavage along the thigh in Cheongsam is extremely seductive.

See how Miyazawa Rie looks gorgeous in Cheongsam in the movie "Peony Pavilion":

Cheongsam may not be romantic but it fits perfectly for the body of Eastern Asian girls.

(Do you ever see a Caucasan girl looks great when she is dressed in Cheongsam?)

But Cheongsam is undeniably hard to wear.

The girl must not have any fat in the tummy and the high fixed collar makes the neck stiff.

However, Cheongsam can be very sexy if the girl who wears it has fair skin color and long feet.

The cleavage along the thigh in Cheongsam is extremely seductive.

See how Miyazawa Rie looks gorgeous in Cheongsam in the movie "Peony Pavilion":

http://www.time.com/time/asia/arts/magazine/0,9754,180571,00.html

[skylee]

Wouldn't Maggie Cheung in 花樣年華 be a better example for Cheongsam being seductive?

[holyman]

do we not call the text written 漢字 because the han ethnic was not yet formed? and here forming does not mean another ethnic merged, it is more of an alias change from 華夏 to 漢, because it was the han dynasty that rised up as an unprecedented power.

u missed the point. being 'han' or 'huaxia' is more of a culture thing, there is no need to connect it with ethnicity. being a 'han' doesnt really say anything about your racial content or ethnic group, esp in the anthropology sense cos han itself is already a mixture of different tribes and ppl, huaxia is at least 2 races. so there is no need to say sour things or racial comments about manchurian costumes(or any other costumes forthat matters) while trying to promote the so called 'han dress'. i just find it disturbing cos recently i find that in china a lot of commercial promotions like to relate their products to racial emotions in order to sell them.

[holyman]

Your impress of Tang is from media! See Japan and Korea Clothes --the leading style of Tang should be that?

please go and check the wall paintings in the tang tombs or dunhuang caves. but of course ppl wear differently during summer and winter.

in tang dynasty ppl do wear multiple layer of clithings --- made of silk, so thin and light that ur flesh can be seen even when wearing 8 or 10 layers. japanese just changed the material to thicker ones so it seems clumsy to us. in the famen temple site ppl discovered 700 layers of tang silk pile up to 28cm thick, so imagine their weaving skills.

[Guest greenpine]

do we not call the text written 漢字 because the han ethnic was not yet formed? and here forming does not mean another ethnic merged' date=' it is more of an alias change from 華夏 to 漢, because it was the han dynasty that rised up as an unprecedented power.

[/quote']

u missed the point. being 'han' or 'huaxia' is more of a culture thing, there is no need to connect it with ethnicity. being a 'han' doesnt really say anything about your racial content or ethnic group, esp in the anthropology sense cos han itself is already a mixture of different tribes and ppl, huaxia is at least 2 races. so there is no need to say sour things or racial comments about manchurian costumes(or any other costumes forthat matters) while trying to promote the so called 'han dress'. i just find it disturbing cos recently i find that in china a lot of commercial promotions like to relate their products to racial emotions in order to sell them.

your point of ethnic content about HAN on itself seems valid but relatively in the context of this planet may I mind you that no current ethnic is pure and HAN is still relatively a very pure ethnic, the reason being is that historically, there are a numerous invasion undoubtably, but may I mind you that also the HAN or chinese has always retained the largest population in the world, thus, invasion only bought minor changes. which one is more pure, 1 drop of milk in water and half milk and half water? so, if any ethnic or nationality has the right to own its appearance identity, HAN will be the last to give up this right.

but then you could argue why HAN has such a huge population, isn't that the result of ethnic mixture? my verdict being yes, that is very correct but have you thought when that happened? that happened simutaneously when the foundation of the culture itself was forming, thus, the resulted HAN ethnic inherited its identity from the culture making a unique group of human beings ...

commercialisation in contemporary china does have a big problem and yes merchants are utilising this so-called cultural identity to achieve financial profits, isn't that the case with this so-called 唐裝? but i can assure you that many people including myself are working on the renaissance of our costume for no commercial purposes, our driving force is the long lost pride and the eager to achieve self respect and advance our civilisation. there are role models, the former persian, now the iranian who lost their cultures for a 1000 years revived or at least gave 100% their effort to restore what is rightfully theirs, needless to mention the jews regardless what is happening in isarel, what they did to their culture is admirable, we lost our costumes, they lost their language, their territory and basically everything. they have achieved it, won't we?